HED3 History

The chart indicates weight per wheel including bike, not rider weight. As Andrew notes, get prepped max weight “all-up” with gear, food and hydration, then put one scale under the front wheel, and another scale under the rear wheel to determine how much weight each wheel carries.

The chart was posted a while back in a different thread. Maybe the chart is hooey. Does anyone have a better formula?

Upon Andrew Coggan’s
indication that he’s under-inflating compared to this chart, I’m going
to try 19mm at 120psi front.

The cassette wobble during pedaling is measurable on a truing stand. Maybe Vince @ Hed can address the cause and fix.

OK, I missed that somehow, makes much more sense. Duh. Without measuring my exact my F/R balance, I guess I’m probably in the ballpark: typical race setup is a 20mm @ ~120psi in front and a 23mm @ ~110 psi in back.

Experimented with 19mm front tire at 125psi on a 110 mile ride, which included hitting a couple small holes. No troubles. That’s well below where this chart indicates I should inflate, so I guess it’s research and search function time for me.

Yup sounds like you have the hub version that can be run as a 7/8 speed thread on freewheel in the rear or a front.

I found this interesting old thread. Does anyone recall the first year Specialized sold this well? ~1995ish??

I found this interesting old thread. Does anyone recall the first year Specialized sold this well? ~1995ish?? I bought one in 1994 - it had a sticker relating to Obree’s 1993 exploits. He was using them by July 1993 - pretty sure they were retail items by then, the very earliest ones were heavier and you couldn’t see the weave.

It was originally a wheel that DuPont was working on with Specialized (and Steve Hed). Specialized was then marketing the wheel for a number of years and Steve Hed then took it over at Hed. All in all it is very unchanged since the late 1990’s

I just found this old thread, and thought I might add some history. I was a mechanical eng’g consultant in Dupont’s Engineering Division and was asked to do the structural design of the Specialized 3 spoke wheel. The areo shape was already created by Profesor Chester Kyle (designed bicycle stuff for the 84 Olympics) and Steve Hedd using a wind tunnel and a full scale mock-up of the wheel made from plywood. Two guys from our composites devision asked me to do the total structural design. I only had 2-D drawings showing the side view and aero cross-sections of the spokes, but very little detail on the transitions to the hub and rim sections. I first ordered dozens of technical papers by Prof M.L. Hull at UC Davis, who had studied rider induced loads on bicycles using strain gauge measurments. In 1988-89, composite design was difficult, and tedious. I specified all the lay-ups, and details of the rim cross section and the hub, and the composite interfaces. Below is an image of the model I made.

If there is more interest I have the original Bicycling Magazine write-up of the project, and much more details. I enjoyed seeing Graeme Obree setting records with the wheels, and several teams using them on time trials at the UCI euro tours like the TDF (Lance Armstrong).

Wheel.JPG

This thread is Slowtwitch Gold. Record10Carbon, TrashTalk, Andrew Coggin and DC Pattie! The things we thought about tire width and pressure back in the day… ugh.

But the real opportunity is to interview Kevin K2 (K squared?) for a deep dive front page article on this history-making and very long-lived wheel!

It was originally a wheel that DuPont was working on with Specialized (and Steve Hed). Specialized was then marketing the wheel for a number of years and Steve Hed then took it over at Hed. All in all it is very unchanged since the late 1990’s

I just found this old thread, and thought I might add some history. I was a mechanical eng’g consultant in Dupont’s Engineering Division and was asked to do the structural design of the Specialized 3 spoke wheel. The areo shape was already created by Profesor Chester Kyle (designed bicycle stuff for the 84 Olympics) and Steve Hedd using a wind tunnel and a full scale mock-up of the wheel made from plywood. Two guys from our composites devision asked me to do the total structural design. I only had 2-D drawings showing the side view and aero cross-sections of the spokes, but very little detail on the transitions to the hub and rim sections. I first ordered dozens of technical papers by Prof M.L. Hull at UC Davis, who had studied rider induced loads on bicycles using strain gauge measurments. In 1988-89, composite design was difficult, and tedious. I specified all the lay-ups, and details of the rim cross section and the hub, and the composite interfaces. Below is an image of the model I made.

If there is more interest I have the original Bicycling Magazine write-up of the project, and much more details. I enjoyed seeing Graeme Obree setting records with the wheels, and several teams using them on time trials at the UCI euro tours like the TDF (Lance Armstrong).

Would love to see what you have… an amazing wheel more aerodynamic than all/nearly all for the next 20 plus years. I remember reading about it when it came out, an investment of $1,000,000 to design and fabricate.

After six months and $1 million, invested jointly by Specialized and Du Pont, the first three-spoke wheel prototypes rolled out of a Du Pont plant.

Would be interested to see more info on this.

It always tested very well when I did a bunch of windtunnel wheel tests around 2010 and in recent testing was only very slightly less aero than the latest designs.

I did a weekly group ride with some fast guys, and trained the rest of the week solo trying to beat my average speed on same course. One rider was a lawyer, and I kept that in mind when I did the design … if the wheel failed & caused an injury, DuPont would get sued and I would be the person responsible. So I still kept the weight as low as possible, I also made it “fail safe” in critical areas where the composite skin joined the aluminum hub and rim.

The rim was similar to a Mavic MA40 with extensions of the two brake surface inward where the thin composite skin of the deep dish rim was bonded. If that bond failed all the way around the rim, the rim would still be held in place. Same with the interface at the hub. I was testing an early rear wheel prototype and as I got out of the saddle to start a climb, the rear hub just spun inside the wheel … the bond failed but in a “fail-safe” way, no crash. I found out that when the wheel was made, a worker had ignored the proceedure and applied very low strength “contact cement” to where the dry carbon fiber overlapped the hub bonding surface.

The wheels was manufactured using an RTM process, Resin Transfer Molding. The dry carbon fiber layup (that I had specified) was applied to a premade foam core, slightly smaller than the actual wheel. Top & bottom steel “clamshell” steel moulds enclosed the foam core with carbon layers, and the rim and hub in place. The epoxy resin was injected into the thin volumes where the dry fiber skin was.

Woven carbon fiber cloth was used for the spokes and the deep rim, while very high stiffness unidirectional patches were used at the base of the spokes to control lateral stiffness. The individual fibers were twice as stiff as the same size fiber made from steel ! My stiffness goal was equal to a 36 spoke Mavic wheel, and I was limited to 3/4" spoke width.

The attached is a Bicycling Magazine report on the wheel design, including a picture of my computer monitor displaying part of the wheel model. Mark Hopkins was the project manager, but he implied he did the analysis … I made sure my name was on that computer image.

PDF would not load, will try later

Thanks, I did a high res x ray of one when I worked in aerospace and could see the ply angles and the woven and UD plies, also noted some glass tracers that showed up very well. I determined that it was RTM molded in one shot but nice to hear it from the horses mouth :wink:

The rim was similar to a Mavic MA40 with extensions of the two brake surface inward where the thin composite skin of the deep dish rim was bonded. If that bond failed all the way around the rim, the rim would still be held in place. …

I can vouch this worked fine. I rode an H3 in time trials in 2019-2021 while it was making a loud clicking noise, which turned out to be because the bonding had failed. The alloy rim stayed put…

very cool!

that wheel was bulletproof - i raced hundreds of times with one of the originals on the rear in the 90’s. it did suffer from brake pad rub, and most eventually wind up cracking in the same spot from what i’ve seen…but, i snake bit a tire in a road race (merced??) after hitting a hug pothole and the wheel survived. i’m convinced that impact would have detonated a mavic gel-280. thank you sir! :slight_smile:

anyway, the real question for me, though, is: does a tri-spoke hang or stand on the spokes? :wink:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13WfK6ud-L0qCK7dxm8AFUnvm7I1sBU6s/view?usp=sharing

https://web.archive.org/web/20190620013127/http://biketechreview.com/index.php/misc/55-misc-reading/471-hang-or-stand

I have a mixed set. H3+ front, H3 rear on a 1x flat land rocket of a fun bike.

I use the front+disc for most of my TT and tri racing. I believe there were updates to the carbon and hubs as time with on, but the step-up going wide with the + model is really nice if you can get your hands on one.

Competitive width and weight, raced it in St George a while back and never felt like the wheels were an issue on the climbs.

Plus they look fast which every knows is 90% of speed.

Thanks, I did a high res x ray of one when I worked in aerospace and could see the ply angles and the woven and UD plies, also noted some glass tracers that showed up very well. I determined that it was RTM molded in one shot but nice to hear it from the horses mouth :wink:

What did you mean by ‘glass tracers’?

“I worked in aerospace” …

As an internal ME consultant, I usually did product line troubleshooting, failure analysis, and some machine design for all of the DuPont plants, including some in western Europe. Before this wheel project, I first got into composite work for that same division’s industrial/aerospace group, designing “momentum wheel” composite structures for satelites. I recall they had to survive severe ~ ‘white noise’ vibration at rocket lift off, severe temperature variations and avoid natural frequencies including the beneficial gyroscopic stiffeneing effects.

It was the steady loss of that west coast aerospace composite work in the late 80’s that pushed project leader engineers there (Mark Hopkins and Frank Principe) to hustle work from their athletics group and the bicycle wheel.

RTM evolution: When those two marketing guys from DuPont’s relatively new Composits Group, first asked me to do the job, I refused because they were being forced to use a loser “door frame” mfg’g process. Dupont had spent ~5-10+ million $$ on trying to make a new automotive door frame using a twisted composite rope for the main structure, bonded inside an exterior door panel, but never were able to make it work without creating visible flaws in the panel.

They later send out an email invitation to myself & others to a meeting about how to make this crude door-frame method could be used to make light, high performance wheels. They requested that nay-sayers stay home, and I obeyed. Luckily someone suggested the RTM process, and I said I’d help on that basis.

The wheel was advertised as including Dupont’s famous Kevlar fibers, but this was a stiffness driven design, and Carbon fibers were stiffer and my preference. But I was told to include Kevlar, so I added a small amount in a non-critical area. On either side of the spokes near the hub, I specified patches of 60 million psi uni fibers, twice the Modulus of Elasticity of steel. This was to increase the lateral stiffness at the rim.

This thread is Slowtwitch Gold. Record10Carbon, TrashTalk, Andrew Coggin and DC Pattie! The things we thought about tire width and pressure back in the day… ugh.

But the real opportunity is to interview Kevin K2 (K squared?) for a deep dive front page article on this history-making and very long-lived wheel!

The attachment should be the original Bicycling Magazine visit and write-up.

That image must exceed the allowed size limit.

On this engineering link, I was using this work on the 3 spoke wheel to get used to how that Eng-Tips forum works. The article is there but a bit hard to read.

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=517983

Here is another article about the wheel in Sports Illustrated:

https://vault.si.com/vault/1990/01/08/reinventing-the-wheel-fewer-spokes-mean-faster-pedal-pushing

The option to create a link does not work for me ?

very cool!

that wheel was bulletproof - i raced hundreds of times with one of the originals on the rear in the 90’s. it did suffer from brake pad rub, and most eventually wind up cracking in the same spot from what i’ve seen…but, i snake bit a tire in a road race (merced??) after hitting a hug pothole and the wheel survived. i’m convinced that impact would have detonated a mavic gel-280. thank you sir! :slight_smile:

anyway, the real question for me, though, is: does a tri-spoke hang or stand on the spokes? :wink:

https://drive.google.com/...U6s/view?usp=sharing

https://web.archive.org/...ng/471-hang-or-stand

For conventional tensioned wire wheels, a vertical load is reacted by a decrease in tension in a group of spocks near the point of contact, below the axle, AND an increase in tension in a central group of spokes above the axle. Assuming all spokes are properly tensioned evenly.

For the tri-spoke with a spoke cut-out, the stiff structure acts more like a beam structure. When I was verifying my tri spoke monel in the lab, I measured actual lateral stiffness on and between spokes. Had there been a spoke that had the cut-out, the lateral stiffness would have been dramatically reduced, especially whan lateral rim load was at the severed spoke.

The confusion here may be interpretation of the 3 spokes acting like wire spokes, no comparison. This damage to one of 3 structural “beams” would result in loss of stiffness and reduced road life due to high fiber and matrix stresses at spoke to rim and spoke to hub junctions.

The 3 spoke is a structural design, like a solid rear disc with a honycomb center.

For the tri-spoke with a spoke cut-out, the stiff structure acts more like a beam structure. When I was verifying my tri spoke monel in the lab, I measured actual lateral stiffness on and between spokes. Had there been a spoke that had the cut-out, the lateral stiffness would have been dramatically reduced, especially whan lateral rim load was at the severed spoke.

The confusion here may be interpretation of the 3 spokes acting like wire spokes, no comparison. This damage to one of 3 structural “beams” would result in loss of stiffness and reduced road life due to high fiber and matrix stresses at spoke to rim and spoke to hub junctions.

:slight_smile:

Jobst Brandt (RIP) wrote a lot about hanging versus standing back in the days of USENET/rec.bicycles.tech. He was firmly in the camp of standing (even with tensioned wheels). My blurb with the hang vs stand topic was a bit of an homage and a friendly poke at that debate. Wheels and the design of them is an awesome topic!

I used to work for Spinergy and structurally tested/broke many different kinds of wheels back then when the UCI was trying to ban wheels like your tri-spoke for mass start events…it was a great experience!

https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/v1712330918/tips/Bike_Wheel_FEA_zixcxz.jpg

I’m guessing this is a shell model? …these results are so cool for 1990! not sure what the load condition is, but it generally shows where I’ve seen most of the originals crack: at the rim section/spoke blend radius.

If you were to fix this failure mode, how would you have done it?

…another thing that I’ve seen folks on the internets over the years talk about with your wheel is the brake rub and the between/at spoke lateral/radial stiffness difference. I have measured the between/at spoke variation in the lab back in my brand S days but didn’t really notice it on the road. However, the brake rub was obvious and measurable. How would you have reduced the “between the pads” deflection if you were to do the structural design again?

such a great wheel!

thx for your time.