Most of this is from memory, but The CdTP used a “good pro rider” and called 200 grams = to a S3 vs a R series @ an 8% grade.
I’m assuming that by good pro rider they assumed the power output while climbing was at least equal to a Cat 3 amateur woman ;-).
The aero difference they used was for a S3 and R series. They didn’t halve the S3’s number, but they did use a bike the consider to be more aero than “normal” by comparison, still they give the difference in watts be tween the 2 as pretty significant, IIRC 30 watts or so.
Cervelo even does a hilly circular course where they show almost dead even performnance over 50 miles (8 seconds)
the climbs are short, we were throwing down 500-800 watts up them. I don’t know what the wattage assumption was for the 8% col de tipping point but even for a good pro they aren’t sustaining more watts/kg than these girls were for 30 second to 1 minute bursts up short texas hills. The wattage assumption for an amateur was 250 watts, if I had to guess I would think 400 watts assumption for the pros, but they are heavier too (at least the ones doing 400 watts are)
the aero difference they used was 1/2 of an S3, to be conservative. I’m not just making that up, Damon explained it in a thread here when someone did a lot of math and noticed a discrepancy in the s5 white paper claims and the col de tipping point presentation claims.
Most of this is from memory, but The CdTP used a “good pro rider” and called 200 grams = to a S3 vs a R series @ an 8% grade.
I’m assuming that by good pro rider they assumed the power output while climbing was at least equal to a Cat 3 amateur woman ;-).
The aero difference they used was for a S3 and R series. They didn’t halve the S3’s number, but they did use a bike the consider to be more aero than “normal” by comparison, still they give the difference in watts be tween the 2 as pretty significant, IIRC 30 watts or so.
Cervelo even does a hilly circular course where they show almost dead even performnance over 50 miles (8 seconds)
That is Sheri Rothe, wife of Stefan Rothe (this years P/1 state champ) She was one of 5 women left at the front after the first lap, and ended up 4th overall, 2nd Cat 1
So…how did the flyers chick on the cobra do? Nice!
I feel like clinchers are getting a bit too good of a reputation. I’m racing tomorrow on clinchers, so maybe I’ll put them back in their place with my impressively mediocre performance.
I feel like clinchers are getting a bit too good of a reputation. I’m racing tomorrow on clinchers, so maybe I’ll put them back in their place with my impressively mediocre performance.
the course has everything from short steep climbs, longer effort climbs, false flats, exposed flats, fast 2 mile gradual recents. I just feel there is no section of the course where a deeeeep wheel is going to provide any additional benefit…
I’m betting that when it got down to the “final 3” as shown in that pic above, the deeper wheels were a HUGE advantage…
crappy ametuer dudes cranks out 400w for 5min on short climbs(1.2 mi) and those are the ones getting dropped by the climbers in the group
the col de tipping point comparison was done by cervelo. they used 250 watts for an amateur. this leads me to believe their scenario was a very long climb, not a short climb. Since even I can do 250 watts for a long climb.
are we arguing just to argue here?
I’ve got power files from the race, so the wattages for the women and duration of the climbs are not guesses. If you think analytic cycling is in error, which is possible, please show your work =)
the aero difference they used was 1/2 of an S3, to be conservative. I’m not just making that up, Damon explained it in a thread here when someone did a lot of math and noticed a discrepancy in the s5 white paper claims and the col de tipping point presentation claims.
I’m fairly certain he’s well aware of all of that…IIRC, he was involved in that conversation
the power numbers are ridiculous, no matter who used them in what presentation. ametuers do not climb at 250w, unless they are playing “piano” and just riding back to their car to go home
So it is your claim that amateurs climb well above 250 watts for climbs that last 20, 30, 60 minutes?
loads up my savageman power file
big savage took me 41 minutes
I averaged 251 watts @ 175lbs of bodyweight
72 out of 321 people who signed up for the hardest half iron in the country.
hmmm
no, not arguing for the sake of it.
the power numbers are ridiculous, no matter who used them in what presentation. ametuers do not climb at 250w, unless they are playing “piano” and just riding back to their car to go home
the course has everything from short steep climbs, longer effort climbs, false flats, exposed flats, fast 2 mile gradual recents. I just feel there is no section of the course where a deeeeep wheel is going to provide any additional benefit…
I’m betting that when it got down to the “final 3” as shown in that pic above, the deeper wheels were a HUGE advantage…
There was no advantage. This whole post was just the 50th opportunity for Jack to mention that his wife won a RR last weekend. It is getting rather obnoxious. She is a strong cyclist with tons of development still needed. She will quickly be very resented though if he continues this awkward social media/forum barraging of her stats after each race. Maybe it is a triathlon thing. But dude, she is just ok. Her average power for the RR means nothing, and there was barely any competition last weekend.
No, I’m not trying to compare anything. Styrrel and his reality confusion vortex is the one who decided to ask why the col de tipping point in a road race with short climbs was different thant he col de tipping point in the cervelo presentation.
Cervelo stated their assumptions, and gave one answer
I stated my data, and gave another
nothing is wrong here dude
and if a mid level cat4 is not “an amateur” well I don’t know what to tell you. I’m stronger than 95% of people buying cervelos, I am above their target audience, yet 250 watts is dead on for me
now you are trying to compare amatuer triathletes to amatuer roadies, who train one sport?? hmmmm
I’ll hold my claim, especially as you said you were dropped in the RR not even on a climb
Truly, Jen McRae or Purcell would have owned had they been there.
the course has everything from short steep climbs, longer effort climbs, false flats, exposed flats, fast 2 mile gradual recents. I just feel there is no section of the course where a deeeeep wheel is going to provide any additional benefit…
I’m betting that when it got down to the “final 3” as shown in that pic above, the deeper wheels were a HUGE advantage…
There was no advantage. This whole post was just the 50th opportunity for Jack to mention that his wife won a RR last weekend. It is getting rather obnoxious. She is a strong cyclist with tons of development still needed. She will quickly be very resented though if he continues this awkward social media/forum barraging of her stats after each race. Maybe it is a triathlon thing. But dude, she is just ok. Her average power for the RR means nothing, and there was barely any competition last weekend.
1,2s are the amatuers too, 4,5s fall in the novice. yeah, we all start there, but so do untrained beginners, is that what you think amatuer means.
I don’t see how someone that has done 10 events compares with someone that has raced for 5-10 years. yes there are the shooting starts, but in general…
fyi, I use a jet 90 front wheel in my road races, hilly or flat. As an example, last weekend, 3rd time up a 1.2 mi climb, I knew I no longer had the 380w to stay with them and dropped off the lead group of 14 at beginning of climb and maintained 350w up. this was about a min slower than previous 2x up. I was significantly behind at the top. upon cresting, I passed one fellow just before the bottom of the descent, and another 2 miles later and ended up rejoining a chase group of 4 at mile 6. I didn’t wait for the two I passed. Hence, why I use it for RR
that scenario was a longer climb, and thus at much lower wattage. in this race they were hitting 500 watts up the climbs. lower the watts and the balance shifts more towards weight
cervelo did something like use 1/2 the actual aero advantage of the s3 in that analysis, just to be conservative.
the lighter wheels ARE quicker in this scenario (ignoring aerodynamics, maybe still would be, I don’t know). Its just not enough quicker to matter. You would close the 1 meter gap right back up on the back side of the hill.
Serious question. How do you reconcile Cervelos Col de Tipping point where they say that 200 grams less weight would be an advantage over a much more aero frame at less of a grade with your analysis?
Styrrell
You may be right, but I have three questions about your analysis. First, since it is a road race, rather than allow a 1 meter gap to develop on a climb, most riders will fight to stay on the wheel of the rider in front – extra weight will place an extra toll on the legs of the racer. That toll is insignificant unless you get dropped or don’t have the legs to sprint at the finish. Second, the weight difference would be more like 500 grams with decent (but not outrageous expensive) set of low profile clinchers. Third, with four girls in lead pack for a while, then three, how much time is spend in wind?
