Heating contractors - natural gas furnaces?

[cerveloguy]

Are there any heating contractors on ST?

I’m on forced air electric heating and our electricity bills are getting very expensive so we wish to switch to natural gas. I’ve been doing research and understand the requirements that I want in a high energy natural gas furnace, but am wondering if there are any manufacturers that are stand outs in terms of best buy for the dollar, or are they all about the same?

I’ve talked to one contractor and they are dealers with a couple of companies, but the other contractor is independent and would install anything I want. If I go with #2 which is likely since he is a personal friend, then it will be up to me to pick the furnace. If that’s the case I’m looking for the most bang for the buck, like the Cervelo P2 of natural gas furnaces.

[Boudreaux]

Not a pro, but they’ll ask anyway.

What is your current electric rate? NG rate? How sound is your home’s insulation, windows and doors included?

The question becomes, I suppose: Are you paying about what your neighbors in similar homes are paying?

I’m leery of petro, despite the current glut in NG, and would wonder iffn a good heat pump may be the way to go.

[CW_in_NH]

I’m leery of petro, despite the current glut in NG, and would wonder iffn a good heat pump may be the way to g

There’s a good article about the (in)efficiency of heat pumps/geothermal in the new fine home building (here is part of it). Generally less efficient than traditional sources.

To the OP: there is tremendous mark-up on furnaces, if you bought one, and just payed labor to install, it would probably be 1/2 of buying from an “installer”. I know a friend of mine put one in (forced hot air) and an efficient model was <$1000.

It is pretty easy to compare as they all have efficiency factors, so there is an objective measurement (when comparing like furnaces). I can find out where he bought the furnace, and the model if you’d like. You should be able to run the numbers to determine payback, etc. You can take you’re current electricity use (heating only) and convert that to therms, and go from there.

All you’ll need to do is get gas to the furnace, and make up a manifold that will connect your current duct-work to the new furnace. Pretty easy, I’d guess 1/2 day for each activity (provided you already have gas at the house). Although if you have one of those electrical systems that has a separate heater/blower in each location, then its a different discussion entirely…

[aka_roadhouse]

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           Trane                 XV95                  specifics                     

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      Compare  		     Find  Manual   ![http://www.trane.com/Residential/images/content/products/productimages/furnaces/XV95.gif](http://www.trane.com/Residential/images/content/products/productimages/furnaces/XV95.gif)  

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[STP]

We got a new furnace about 4 years ago. I did quite a bit of research at the time but the details escape me now. One theme I do remember hearing over and over is that like bikes, getting the proper size is really important - too big is actually as bad as going too small since modern high efficiency furnaces are meant to run longer on lower output for max efficiency and comfort. Go too big and you’re loosing much of the benefits of the dual stage feature. Also, a good quality installation is more important than the brand of the furnace. So, who sizes it and installs it for you can trump what brand name you pick as long as he sells a reputable brand.

I got several estimates and ended up getting a Bryant since the Bryant dealer in my area was the guy I was most comfortable with. I did spring for the top of the line thermostat with the 7 day set back timer, humidistat tied into the outside temp etc. It even uses the back pressure in the plenum to tell me when the filter is dirty. It was worth the extra dough since it does do some cool things and its fun to play with. After all, your P2 furnace will be hidden in the basement. You need something cool on the wall to show off

[aka_roadhouse]

All you’ll need to do is get gas to the furnace, and make up a manifold that will connect your current duct-work to the new furnace. Pretty easy, I’d guess 1/2 day for each activity (provided you already have gas at the house). Although if you have one of those electrical systems that has a separate heater/blower in each location, then its a different discussion entirely…

if you want to die in your sleep then do what ^^^ suggested.

a furnace will have an inducer motor which forces the exhaust air up and through your roof, out through a double walled Metal-Fab exhaust vent pipe.

[aka_roadhouse]

I’m leery of petro, despite the current glut in NG, and would wonder iffn a good heat pump may be the way to g

There’s a good article about the (in)efficiency of heat pumps/geothermal in the new fine home building (here is part of it). Generally less efficient than traditional sources.

To the OP: there is tremendous mark-up on furnaces, if you bought one, and just payed labor to install, it would probably be 1/2 of buying from an “installer”. I know a friend of mine put one in (forced hot air) and an efficient model was <$1000.

It is pretty easy to compare as they all have efficiency factors, so there is an objective measurement (when comparing like furnaces). I can find out where he bought the furnace, and the model if you’d like. You should be able to run the numbers to determine payback, etc. You can take you’re current electricity use (heating only) and convert that to therms, and go from there.

All you’ll need to do is get gas to the furnace, and make up a manifold that will connect your current duct-work to the new furnace. Pretty easy, I’d guess 1/2 day for each activity (provided you already have gas at the house). Although if you have one of those electrical systems that has a separate heater/blower in each location, then its a different discussion entirely…

Lowes? puleeze.

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Requiring neither combustion nor a chimney, produces air conditioning as well as heat.*** Due to rising governmental standards and rapidly evolving technology, heat pumps are now far more efficient than ever before.*** Heat pumps will not suffice in freezing conditions or extremely high temperatures, and thus are a good choice for coastal, temperate climates, where temperatures don’t fluctuate much. Heat pumps will only do the trick in extreme climates when coupled with a natural gas furnace.

One of the key decisions you’ll make when purchasing a heat pump is which brand to purchase. Even though you may have a specific brand you mind, ask your certified contractor about these top HVAC brands: Carrier, Bryant, Goodman, Amana, and Trane. Your contractor will size your heat pump and ensure that the equipment is installed properly. Consider working with a company that maintains a network of HVAC contractors. Since cost in typically a major factor, make sure that the contractor you hire has a great reputation.

[aka_roadhouse]

Comparison Report: Heat Pump vs. Electric Furnace This comparison looks at a sample single story home that is 1800sq. ft. Built in mid-1980’s, 4 occupants, all electric appliances, water heater setting is medium, double-pane windows, average air leaks, thermostat setting of 72 for heat & 78 for cooling. No gas or propane is used in this sample home.

Sample w/ (Heat Pump) Sample (Electric Furnace) Gas/Propane** kWh $/yr Gas/Propane** kWh $/yr Refrigeration 0 1,376 $115 0 1,376 $115 Lighting 0 1,356 $113 0 1,356 $113 Cooking 0 1,296 $108 0 1,296 $108 Washer 0 141 $12 0 141 $12 Dryer 0 1,100 $92 0 1,100 $92 Dishwasher 0 157 $13 0 157 $13 Cooling 0 5,829 $486 0 5,829 $486 Heating 0 3,554 $296 0 9,297 $775 Water Heating 0 5,618 $469 0 5,618 $469 Total Per Year 0 20,426 $1,704 0 26,169 $2,182 Average Per Month 0 1,702 $142

Savings of $40 a month & about $478 a year in this example. Average price of .0834 per kWh. Your rate may vary

[CW_in_NH]

Yeah, forgot about the exhausting, but it need not go through the roof.

[aka_roadhouse]

That didn’t come out so good but it shows a heat pump in the $478 annual savings over electric heat. that extra 110 volts (amp draw) required for those heat strips is a bitch, a furnace only has the fan to power and a transformer that cuts down part of that to 24 for your controls. electric requires 220 volts of electric, furnace only 110 to be plain.

here’s the link http://www.waynewhitecoop.com/pages/Cost

[aka_roadhouse]

Yeah, forgot about the exhausting, but it need not go through the roof.

where else? i’ve yet to see it go out of the side of a house and I’ve personally installed about 1000 furnaces in my over a decade now. vents such as a drier vent sure, carbon monoxide up through the roof.

maybe it’s just down here in Houston though, the a/c capital of the world?

[JustinPB]

There’s a good article about the (in)efficiency of heat pumps/geothermal in the new fine home building (here is part of it). Generally less efficient than traditional sources.

Ok this is inaccurate, and an incomplete picture. If the claims in that article are true–that the COP of a typical installed HP is about 2 (and I’ve seen some ASHRAE data which draws different conclusions) then at worst that means that you’re only a little worse than a gas furnace in terms of CO2 emissions. On the order of 20% worse. Considering that the GSHP will cost 2x what a furnace costs then you’re definitely losing.

On the other hand for people who cannot heat with gas (no source or what have you) then a GSHP will cost them 50% less energy (given a COP of 2) than an electric furnace.

to the OP: another major source of inefficiency is badly sealed ducts. if you’re going to redo the furnace have them reseal your ducts while your at it. I hear blow-in sealing works quite nicely now. Check that out.

[CW_in_NH]

Its common to go out the side (rim joist) in “replacement” construction (may call it direct vent). Need to stay away from windows, etc, so, for instance in my house it would not be possible. Also, venting is typically done with PVC, but that’s up here where its cold, most furnaces are condensing and the exhaust has already run through a heat exchanger.

FWIW, we have very little electric heat, most common is hydronic. The only time i’ve seen electric forced hot air is in a friends vacation place…

Also if you haven’s seen the article about heat pumps in Fine Homebuilding its worth a read. The “effecency” numbers are brought back down to earth a little, but again, a heat pump or the modern term, geothermal heating system, does not make sense in my climate.

[aka_roadhouse]

. Also, venting is typically done with PVC, but that’s up here where its cold, most furnaces are condensing and the exhaust has already run through a heat exchanger.

can you explain what condensing means in regards to a furnace? and i’ve yet to witness a heat exchanger burn exhausted gas so that too if you will.

your heat exchanger are the burners that much like it sounds, burn the gas (the flames) and heat is blown through the plenum from that point via the fan in the furnace. what you are describing is like a vehicles catalytic converter which maybe you are correct for up there and I just haven’t dealt with it being down here but I haven’t heard of burnt gas being re-burnt so to speak.

[aka_roadhouse]

to the OP: another major source of inefficiency is badly sealed ducts. if you’re going to redo the furnace have them reseal your ducts while your at it. I hear blow-in sealing works quite nicely now. Check that out.

by blown in you mean attic insulation, right? do you have old school metal hard duct or flex duct?

[JustinPB]

no, they have some sort of crazy polymer they use to seal ducts. They seal up vents really well, then blow from the furnace-end and it’s sorta like inner-tube sealant, only for ducts.

[aka_roadhouse]

no, they have some sort of crazy polymer they use to seal ducts. They seal up vents really well, then blow from the furnace-end and it’s sorta like inner-tube sealant, only for ducts.

never heard of it and i’m guessing it’s a last resort ditch effort instead of having to replace the actual duct runs, right? do you have flexible ducts or hard metal ducts? i’m guessing for that kind of application it’d work better (perhaps only?) with metal hard pipe duct lines.

[JustinPB]

I haven’t had this done, but heard a presentation from a contractor who does this stuff. I’m not sure of the pricing. I’d imagine that’d impact how it’s used, whether as a last ditch before re-running ducts, or as a cheapish way to lower gas bills. He said it’ll work on both types of ducts, but it works better on the usual metal kind.

[peter826]

where else? i’ve yet to see it go out of the side of a house and I’ve personally installed about 1000 furnaces in my over a decade now. vents such as a drier vent sure, carbon monoxide up through the roof.

maybe it’s just down here in Houston though, the a/c capital of the world?

Fascinating. Pretty much every furnace up here in new construction or replacement is vented via PVC straight out the foundation of the house.

I wonder why it would be different from the midwest to Houston?

[CW_in_NH]

What I linked was an editorial in the issue, there is an entire article on going through the #s to determine if it is right for specific situations. If you’re interested, its worth a read (Issue 211, the annual Houses issue). Good article and less “inflammatory”… (had to look at the actual issue when I got home)