This is really a follow-up to the question I posted a week or so ago about the headset fit in my ti frame. I hand-pressed the Cane Creek C-2 back into the frame (I’d removed a Ritchey Logic before) so that I could keep the fork and handlebars on the frame, and took it to the local Performance Bike Shop today to get another headset to try in there. The guy who worked there, though, wouldn’t even try.
“Titanium is a one-shot deal. Once you’ve worked it, it’s toast. Sorry Dude. I work in the aerospace industry, so I know these things. Why do you think they use titanium bolts in the fuel tanks.”
Well, I bit my tongue while listening to the shop guy’s drivel, since I really DO work in the aerospace industry, but this is the first time I’ve heard that ti would work harden that much installing headset cups.
So I guess my questions are these: Is the Ritchey Logic, for some reason, slightly oversized compared to others of the same standard? Is this view that a titanium frame will only accept a headset once, and then you’re screwed really prevalent? And even though it goes totally against what I understand of the material, is it actually true?
I have to admit that I’m totally baffled that I could remove a “standard” headset and then another of supposedly the same “standard” size will just slip in…
The shop guy is somewhat right. Your frame has been damaged (or always was).
Options:
1.) JB Weld
2.) I thought King made some slightly oversized headsets just to address this problem- call Chris King and ask.
How over is over? Sounds like something possibly some LocTite RC609 could handle easily…MAYBE. I would need to see the bike to be sure. And yes, the OD is all over the place on bearings.
I have never heard that before and you should be able to install and remove headsets multiple times anyway. Plus even if you truly messed up the headtube, the frame wouldn’t be toast. Companies like Lynskey or Moots are easily capable to replace the headtube at a nominal cost.
The shop guy is somewhat right. Your frame has been damaged (or always was).
Options:
1.) JB Weld
2.) I thought King made some slightly oversized headsets just to address this problem- call Chris King and ask.
JB Weld was mentioned…
I’ll have to check with Chris King. Thanks for the suggestion.
It’s not like there are huge mechanical stresses on the press fit of the cups. JB Weld, Loctite, or if you want to do it nicely, get someone to cut a couple of shims for it from a piece of tubing. Your frame’s hardly toast.
The Performance Bike guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about (which is why he’s working at Performance…) but it’s pretty much irrelevent why/how your bike got toasted. The fact of the matter is, if both the top and bottom of the headtube are oversized to exactly the same diameter, and your HS is to spec, it is very likely that this frame was simply manufactured to the wrong bore spec, and yeah - I have seen this before, and had to fix it.
Here’s what you can do, depending how far out of whack the bore is, and how much money you want to throw at the problem:
Loctite a new HS in.
JB weld a new HS in.
seat a new HS with “Coke can” shims
have a frame builder lay a weld bead into the headtube and ream and re-face the tube.
have a frame builder replace the headtube.
All of these are viable and will work depending on the severity of the problem. Start with the first on the list, and work your way up until the thing is rideable.
I would NOT JB anything to a nice frame. Certainly LockTite RC609 would be okay (the green stuff)…BUT…he would need to install the bearings and have the fork installed and properly adjusted before the goo hardens. If he was to install the bearings with LockTite and wait there is a chance that the bearings would not be centered and it would be impossible to get the fork into the frame. In this situation the fork would be the alignment system to be sure that the bearings were in line. If the bearings are out of line then the bike would have a serious risk of a speed shimmy and or the inability to install the fork as it would knock the upper bearing out of the frame if it did not line up.
You have to consider that JB weld likes to play the “I am forever” game, where as something as simple as boiling water will let LockTite know who is boss.
The other thing to consider (and no I would not use a fucking soda can shim) is that bearings for bikes are not special at all. They are standard bearings that are used in many other applications (take the 608Z bearing as an example). Many places could just offer a bearing with a larger OD than what is “OE”.
But again, I have not seen this frame - nor seen its condition. I have not tried any of the non-standard IS bearings into the frame as it seems there is no standard for IS no matter what folks say.
Yet again, another reason that a few years ago when I had a custom made…it was made to have a “standard” King headset installed, not some bullshit IS trash.
I have never heard that before and you should be able to install and remove headsets multiple times anyway. Plus even if you truly messed up the headtube, the frame wouldn’t be toast. Companies like Lynskey or Moots are easily capable to replace the headtube at a nominal cost.
You know, you’re great up until you get out of your depth, and then you always talk out your ass. :0)
this is a conventional, press in HS frame, not an IHS frame. He posted that earlier. You can dispense with all the IHS BS. It’s boring, and frankly he wouldn’t be having this problem if he wasn’t stuck with one of these old fashioned press-in HS frames…
if the bore is off to the extent that he will have an alignment issue pressing the cups in with locktight, the locktight probably won’t hold, so BFD. It’s standard operating procedure to (always) press HS cups in in alignment anyways, so I’m not really sure what point you’re making here…
read what I wrote. If you happen to follow the list in order, the order is there for a reason. Increasing severity of response. If one doesn’t work, try the next. By the time you’re up to shims, the next step is frame repair. I’m sure you wouldn’t shim a frame, and I’m equally sure that doesn’t impress me. That’s why guys like you pay guys like me to fix their stuff when they run out of (comfortable)options.
As far as JB weld being “forever” - yeah, sure. I will keep that in mind the next time I heat up my aero bars with a propane torch to make the JB weld release so I can swap them out. That’s some powerful forever, that is…
“I would never ever put JB weld on any frame of any make.”
There are three ways to fix anything.
The right way, The wrong way, and the way that works.
I’m not terribly interested in making perfect the obstacle to the possible.
PS - I know the local LBS calls you up. You’ve mentioned it before. I also know - as do you - that the next time we argue over a bike tech issue on here and you’re right, and I’m wrong, that that will be the first time that that has happened :0)
As for severity… I can press the headset races in with hand pressure all the way down, and even after putting the fork in and doing the brake test, there’s no apparent movement. So I think that the coke can shims wouldn’t even start into the tube.
I know a couple builders in the area and will hit them up for estimates. Along with being off my feet for another 5 weeks (no training at all – I’m going stir crazy), this just made me think some one is trying to tell me I need to take up another passtime. Like maybe chess.
