In it he says…“Yes most triathletes have it backwards. A forward seat angle engages the hamstrings more when pedaling, and running is all about hamstrings. I’m not really sure how triathletes came to the forward seat angle, perhaps they thought it was more aerodynamic, but I am sure they didn’t test which muscles are being used in different seat positions.”
Now maybe my biomechanics knowledge is a bit awry but surely riding steeper true angles (i.e. centre of pressure on saddle to BB centre as a line) results in the quadriceps being recruited more??
I’m not Slowman, but after I had a FIST fitting, my running off the bike got instantly better. I used to have to waddle for a while. Now, I have to make myself back off a little or I start off too fast. I also can pedal more freely. I don’t care what the exact muscle usages are, it works for me.
If you read Slowmans’ article about this, on this site, even slack seated riders ran (and cycled) faster when they were steepened.
Sorry should have added that have already studied up on slowtwitch articles on tri-fit aka F.I.S.T. And agree, which is why am surprised at the statements (based on scientifc work) made in the article!
I switched from a road bike to a tri bike with a steep seat angle this year (P2k with seat in forward position), and my running has improved and my hamstring problems are much less severe than in years past. Now, this could be pure coincidence, or due to other factors (ex. I got a new coach), but I think it may play a part.
Unfortunately, my biking didn’t improve at all. Go figure.
Who said you don’t use the hamstrings in the roadie position. Realistically though, you run fast off the bike if you can open up the angle at your hip. If you ride steep, you can ride aero and have an open hip angle, reducing strain on the hip flexors and hamstrings, so they are relatively fresh and have been engaged in a motion similar to running as you get off the bike. If you ride slack, and unaero, you still have a big open hip angle and can run fast off the bike (like Simon Lessing proved at Disney and Lake Placid, or Hamish Carter at Athens). When you ride slack and try to ride aero, you close the hip angle and then your hip flexors and hamstrings have to do relatively more work trying to get over the top dead centre (anyone who has ridden PC’s can attest to this), so when you get off the bike you have to “unfold your body” and then start using the already fried hamstrings and hip flexors. This is when you start having difficulty on the run. Anyone who has tried to run off biking in the Boardman-Larsen-Bjorn position will tell you how hard this is.
Amen. I’d suggest an experiment to see exactly which positions use the hams more.
Move that seat back an inch from where you normally ride. Bet ya $10 your hams and glutes are the first muscles to feel it.
I’m DONE riding in aero positions. I switched over to a slack, roadie position this year and have never been faster on the bike, and never more comfortable either.
Fair enough, you should be fast in the roadie position. The entire pro cycling peloton is, but they don’t have to run off the bike. So you can ride slack and not very aero like Lessing and Hamish Carter and run fast off the bike, or you can ride fast, slack and aero like every roadie does, but are you running fast off the bike (especially in Olympic tri, where you can’t spend the first 4K getting your running legs “back”).
I rode my fastest IM split in a steep position at Florida but really wished I’d have been slack at IMLP where i felt like i was crawling in the steep setup. As for running off the bike. It probably matters more over shorter ie. Oly distances, than Ultras. I can’t really discern much difference in running ability in an IM, it seems to be more an issue of pacing and nutrition.
Fair enough, you should be fast in the roadie position. The entire pro cycling peloton is, but they don’t have to run off the bike. So you can ride slack and not very aero like Lessing and Hamish Carter and run fast off the bike, or you can ride fast, slack and aero like every roadie does, but are you running fast off the bike (especially in Olympic tri, where you can’t spend the first 4K getting your running legs “back”).
Don’t know! It has been a few years since I did anything other than an Ironman distance race. I guess I’ll know in a few weeks as I’m doing a sprint. My bike has always exceeded my runs though, as a percentage of the finishers, my bike rides are always 20-30 percentile better than the run.
I’m DONE riding in aero positions. I switched over to a slack, roadie position this year and have never been faster on the bike, and never more comfortable either.
As a counter-example, I just did my first race of the year in which I can make a fair comparison to the same race last year (weather conditions, positioning, etc.). A 3mi/20mi/2mi duathlon, last year done on a road bike, this year on a P2K with the nose of the saddle in front of the BB, and about 15cm drop from saddle to pads. My first run was about :04 slower this year; my bike this year was > 1:30 faster, and the second run was < :15 slower than last year (it did hurt quite a bit more, though).
All my bike splits this year are faster than last year, often by a lot, and I’ve ridden less this year than last year. I feel far more comfortable running off the bike this year; I can’t emphasize enough how easy it has been to run off my new steep position this year.
"My first run was about :04 slower this year; my bike this year was > 1:30 faster, and the second run was < :15 slower than last year (it did hurt quite a bit more, though).
All my bike splits this year are faster than last year, often by a lot, and I’ve ridden less this year than last year. I feel far more comfortable running off the bike this year; I can’t emphasize enough how easy it has been to run off my new steep position this year. "
Am I reading you wrong? You are saying that you feel much more comfortable running this year but your both runs are slower than last year? How do you explain that your runs are slower this year? Less run training?
Am I reading you wrong? You are saying that you feel much more comfortable running this year but your both runs are slower than last year? How do you explain that your runs are slower this year? Less run training?
On the contrary. I consider :19 over 5 miles to be within my margin of error due to weather conditions, pacing, etc. A machine I’m not.
I have found this year that I get off the bike and can run without the previous year’s discomfort (you know the feeling). I’ve set lifetime PRs on the treadmill for 5K and 5 miles (I haven’t done any road races in years), and feel like I can break 5:00 for a mile if I had to.
Thanks for the clarification. I have debated the benefits of getting a tri bike. My conclusion was that I should give it a try and decide for myself. The planets haven’t aligned properly yet, but I trust they will some time!