Most of the issues have been covered in the other posts but I figured I would add my perspective as a biological chemistry graduate student in my fifth year.
DO NOT go to grad school (in the sciences). Really sit down and think about why you want to go to grad school. Most reasons people give tend not to hold up upon careful consideration. At the minimum, take 1-2 years after undergrad and get a job. It can be science related but it doesn’t need to be. Do this so you have more time to reflect upon who you are and what you want to do for a career your throughout your life. It will be well worth it if you find a job that keeps you happy and eliminates the need to go to grad school. The only person I would recommend going to grad school is the person who has dreamed of attending grad school and being a scientist their whole life.
The PI/lab you chose is the most important decision. There are good, great, shitty, absolutely disgusting PIs at EVERY university. Thus the actual school you pick matters very little. So really try to figure out what you want to study and then contact people in those labs and ask them specific questions. Do they like their boss, the lab structure, etc. Most will probably not reply because they get way to much junk email but maybe some will. I picked my school because it had more people (PIs) that I wanted to work with than the other schools.
I do think quality of life is an important factor when trying decide where to attend. Your project may take off in the summer/spring just when you wanted to ramp up the training. Then you have to make a decision about where your priorities lie. I see people make the choice all the time to put school behind other activities which is fine but can make grad school even longer and more painful than it already is.
Obviously sacrifices have to be made if you want to train and work hard in school. I find training in the mornings keeps me quite consistent, but it means I don’t spend many nights at the pub chasing ass and I miss a workout or two if I am in lab late at night. I also focus on the shorter races (HIM or less) where a lack of a deep base is less noticable in competition.
There are schools with solid chemistry programs in good weather (Cal Tech, UCLA, UCB, UCSD), but don’t be a star-fucker and chase a name because it will bite you in the ass if you do that to many times in grad school.
Healthy Minds have Healthy Bodies… DO NOT go to grad school.
Oh and for the first person who asked. I am studying chemistry, applied math, and physics in my undergrad. I work in a bioninorganic research lab where we make anticancer drugs (platinum based, if you’ve ever heard of cisplatin or oxaliplatin). I’m sort of leaning towards physical chemistry/chemical dynamics for grad school because of my math and physics background. I’m not so picky though since I love science all around and especially chemistry. My only request is that I end up somewhere in a nice area that I can enjoy (i.e. not the middle of nowhere).
My good friend from college is now working towards his PhD in physical chemistry at UC Santa Barbara. He got into everywhere he applied–Cornell, Northwestern, MIT, as well as warm weather programs like Stanford and UC Berkely. He chose UCSB because there were facutly there he wanted to work with and liked (in particular one professor who is now his advisor–a nobel prize winner I think), he knew he would be able to live there for the 5+ years that it would take to finish(he is a major cold weather wuss since he has only lived in CA & OR), and they gave him a really good amount of money in addition to his NSF grant with minimal teaching. He loves Santa Barbara. He is not a triathlete but he bikes and he says it is great for biking.
I would suggest looking into schools that are strong in Physical Chemistry if that is what you are interested in. Schools like UC Berkely, UCLA, UCSD, USSB, and Stanford are all pretty strong in math and science (I went to grad school in math and looked into all of the UC schools–schools strong in math are usually strong in sciences too), so you don’t have to go somewhere cold to go to a good school.
Don’t count out the cold places, however. Winter will be an adjusment at first, but it can be a good mental and physical break. You can’t train hard year round anyway. Especially when you are in school.
I think Noah Dowell, really asked the right question. Do you really NEED to go to grad school in sciences. It really depends on what you want to do.
I would have to say hour for hour, doing a graduate degree in the sciences is the biggest waste of time if you actually want to maximize your earning potential WHILE having a say in where you live/work. If you go into the sciences, you will either end up working some research lab for relatively shitting pay or for a science based corporation for moderately good pay, but working like a dog. You will be at constant risk of layoffs in the private sector, for your 40-80 hours a week.
Compare that with those that go into a masters program in business admin, med school, law or finance. For every hour they spend in grad school the economic payback and career choices are much better.
I’d have to say spending time in grad school doing my masters in Electrical Engineering was a complete waste of time (although I had bags of time to train…). However, cramming in my MBA at nite school over three years doing 2 full courses per semester three semesters per year, while working full time and training for Ironman was the most valuable investment in time that I made in my professional life :-).
Seriously, Noah has it right…go work for a few years and if you really need to go to grad school, then go there at nite school so you don’t forgoe 2+ years of income and moving backwards in your career…it can take up to 10 years to make up those 2 years of lost income and career advancement.
I’d have to say spending time in grad school doing my masters in Electrical Engineering was a complete waste of time (although I had bags of time to train…). However, cramming in my MBA at nite school over three years doing 2 full courses per semester three semesters per year, while working full time and training for Ironman was the most valuable investment in time that I made in my professional life :-).
Well my wife has her PhD in E.E and I’ll take her salary over yours any day. Maybe an MBA is better for you since you have a hard time with hi-tech items such as curtains?
Electrical engineering is not a good example Electrical engineering grads actually make a excellent starting salary after four years of college. There are not too many other degrees that pay as well as engineering for four years of college.
I’ll be in my 3rd year of a PhD program in Art History at NYU next year, and I happily train for tri’s in New York. I’ll be doing my 3rd Ironman this year, so even in New York there’s a way to do it if you really want to. Although our programs are obviously very different, in my opinion, if you’re going to grad school you should go to the best school you can get in to and fit your training goals around that. Personally I think the life of a grad student is very conducive to training, at least if you’re doing something “soft” like art history!!
Salaries for PhD in EE, CE, and CS tend to be much higher in general than other areas. It’s just the flavour of the decade.
Honestly, going to grad school doesn’t take that much time. When I entered college, instead of working only when we had class, I would spend usually 3-4hrs every day during breaks to read books and take notes of what was coming next…after 4-5 semesters. You are nearly a year ahead of schedule and can ace pretty much anything. It just requires you to do it regularly.
That said, in chem. I’m not sure to what extent this is doable. In maths, I was not running experiments in a wet lab (my first BS was in biology and after biochem I realized that this could be a huge time sink!)…
This is more directed to the OP, but Dev (and others) brings up some additional points I figure I could touch on (wow! two posts in one day for a long time lurker!!)
UCSB–an absolutely phenomenal chemistry and physics department. Great training for SBR. High cost of living so you will probably rent a shitty apartment whereas some students in relatively cheaper towns actually buy a place during grad school.
2.Time: grad school in the sciences in unlike law, business or even medicine for the simple fact of time to degree. The mentioned examples all have defined times to degree whereas grad school is more up to you and how much you put into it. Of course there are countless examples of students graduating with a less than stellar thesis but they often do not go on to great jobs either. So you better be committed to putting in the time and still being there for 6-8 years if things do not work.
Financial:
A. With regards to potential jobs AFTER a low-paying postdoctoral fellowship they actually do pay a decent salary. A scientist running a lab at a major university is making a very nice living. But he has to continually work to get grants to fund his lab and his salary. This is not that bad considering other professions have to be productive in order to get paid, but it is not easy. Do realize that the people who do make it to this level of independence in science are absolutely obssessed with their science. They are highly intelligent, fiercely driven and have an incredible work ethic and are somewhat lucky. If you want to compete with them in getting a job then be prepared to fully commit to grad school.
B. If you decide to go to grad school then you will probably receive a stipend and have your fees paid for. But as Dev mentions this is way below what your peers are making so you need to be careful and frugal. First, open an IRA and have a certain amount of your paycheck directly deposited into that account. No matter, how young you are or how badly you think you need the race wheelset, first start putting away money for retirement so you are not playing to much catch up. Second, cut up your credit cards the day you get admitted. Most of your peers will have jobs and will do things like go out to dinner and drinks, Vegas for a weekend, concerts, as a grad student you will have little disposable cash for such things and most of my classmates (myself included) will want to join the fun and that is bad for your budget and adds up way to quick.
C. Triathlon is a very expensive sport for a grad student. Most threads on slowtwitch compare the entry fee to golfing or some other hobby but all that means nothing to a grad student because they are not able to afford those hobbies either. So I race way less than I would like. Some race directors offer a student discount and I support those races. Independent IMs are often half the price of M-Dots and they offer a great experience. In general though you will not be buying much new equipment or racing often, unless you don’t cut up those credit cards…
UCSB–an absolutely phenomenal chemistry and physics department. Great training for SBR. High cost of living so you will probably rent a shitty apartment whereas some students in relatively cheaper towns actually buy a place during grad school.
My friend there lives in the grad student apartments which are inexpensive and which he says are nice. He saves quite a bit of the money that he gets every year. But he lives frugally. Grad school is not the time for major equipment upgrades.
I’d agree with dowell on this one, but there’s another point or two that should be considered when looking at grad school in the sciences vs. other areas. First, in the sciences, in order to graduate you basically have to discover something new or novel, like how a complex biochemical process occurs. This is not easy, and (as was pointed out) cannot be done on a timetable. Since the original poster is going into chemistry, I’d be a bit leery about the advice from people pursuing graduate degrees where taking taking tests and going to class (i.e., the MDs and MBAs) matters for anything. Truly, at least in grad school for the sciences, going to class is the least important thing. What is important is the number of papers you put out. This is the only way to distinguish yourself from your peers. I have friends who had a good time and didn’t spend too much time in the lab in grad school… and that’s where they still are. They’ll eventually finish, but making 22K a year for so long- you’d be better off starting your amway empire immediately. Essentially, you have to work harder to build a dossier of work associated with your name. Also, I have noticed a high dropout rate among people who don’t work in the sciences before going to grad school, so the idea of working for a few years before going in isn’t a bad idea, but what wasn’t mentioned is it’s harder to get into a decent program without some work experience.
Other than that, I think everyone who’s done the process will tell you that some of the best AND worst days of your life will occur if you decide to go for it.
Just wanted to thank everyone for their advice. I start looking applying next semester so I’m putting a list together now and trying to get in contact with different departments to find out about visits. I guess you’ll see a post about a year from now asking if anyone lives in <insert area where I’ll be going here>. Thanks again!
OK, so my dilemma for some time has been deciding where to go to graduate school. I currently live in Virginia and attend undergrad here and have gotten used to some fairly mild weather. I would really like to continue my triathlon career throughout grad school since I seem to be getting better at it each race I do. I have been thinking that I’d like to be somewhere south of here to take advantage of the warmer weather. The only problem is that there are a lot of amazing schools up north. So for you people up north… How is tri training where you are? Is the weather/normal temperatures a huge factor in your training schedule? I’m also curious to hear from anyone who was a triathlete/graduate student. I will be going for chemistry so I’ll be working around my time in the lab (which I’ve been doing for the past 2 years as an undergrad). My main worry is that I’ll have to give up the one activity that I love outside of science. Of course education comes first, but I’d like to hold on to my only chance at sanity if possible. Thanks in advance for any advice.
-Joe
Hey Joe,
Can’t help with your post unfortunately , but hopefully you can answer a question for me please.
When I went to college we had payments for :
school fees
books
beer
accomodation
food
transportation
basic spending money
I worked in a supermarket part time to fund everything except school fees.
How do you guys get by these days and roughly how much is school fees ?
Well… I’m fortunate enough to have supportive parents who have been nice enough to pay for my tuition and books, as well as some of the fees that went along with going to school (food etc.). I go to a state school so tuition is not bad at all when comparing it to private schools around here (one is over $40k a year!!!) and I live at home so I don’t have rent or anything like that. I’ve also gotten a few scholarships so that also eases the burden. Since they’re so generous with supporting my academics I try to pay for most of my tri stuff unless something breaks the day before a race or something like that and I’m short on cash.
For tri’s I ride a Cervelo Dual with HED3’s and I just recently bought a BMC Streetfire SSX road bike with SRAM Rival components for group rides and getting some mileage under my legs. My idea was to get the stuff now while I have the chance because when I move away to grad school I have a feeling I won’t be blowing any money on race wheels or a new tri frame.
old thread, but would like to get a few tips from experience grad school people who have also trained for Half and full IMs…
Starting DC school Jan 2008 and figured maybe I have to give up triathlons completely. But miss it alot. Didn’t compete this year to finish up prerequisites while working full time.
how did you manage to afford the races, and study and train. Looking for tips on how to keep up energy levels after training to sit down to study?
Seems I train pretty hard, want to be very competitive (usually in top 10 age group consistently). Or do you relax your training regimen and not worry about being competitive?
thanks
Healthy Minds have Healthy Bodies… DO NOT go to grad school.
hehehe, grad student in fifth year, I can so relate…check out www.phdcomics.com that might cheer you up some
BUT, I respectfully disagree; while grad school can be VERY painful, it also has its advantages, not the least of which is the relatively flexible schedule. I have been in grad school for a long time, two MS degrees and now in (hopefully) final year of PHD. I got into tris while in grad school, I did four tri seasons, including three IMs and two marathons and numerous shorter races, only this past year I put the training on hold, due to other life committments and additional job and trying to finish up. But as others have said, I believe if you want to find the time you will, not necessarily competitive IM distance but certainly shorter.
Thing with me right now is, I don’t WANT to find the time, I’d rather snooze some more…stress…
edited to add:
I just browsed through other posts and I still disagree about grad school, especially in the sciences, being a waste. The job of tenured professor is about as good as it gets, IMHO, unless of course you make tons of money without working very hard in some private sector. But the relative freedom and independence (and respect) you have as a tenured prof, hard to beat. Of course, getting there is very hard and indeed requires you to work very very hard. But at the same time you are doing a job that is exciting and interesting, with a goal other than money. Well, I think science and engineering can open the doors to so many job opportunities it can never be considered a waste. But then again, what do I know, I am a scientist…
oops, edited again, very old thread I just saw that now…
old thread, but would like to get a few tips from experience grad school people who have also trained for Half and full IMs…
Starting DC school Jan 2008 and figured maybe I have to give up triathlons completely. But miss it alot. Didn’t compete this year to finish up prerequisites while working full time.
how did you manage to afford the races, and study and train. Looking for tips on how to keep up energy levels after training to sit down to study?
Seems I train pretty hard, want to be very competitive (usually in top 10 age group consistently). Or do you relax your training regimen and not worry about being competitive?
thanks
I just finished my third tri at Logan and actually started doing triathlons at the same time I started my DC degree. I’m 23, single w/ no dependants so I am taking all the financial aid I can so I can afford little luxuries like registration fees, and actually after being stingy, a new bike, albeit a non remarkable one. I use my training as a release for stress, and it works well for me. I do hour to hour and a half workouts during the week and then save my long workouts for the weekend. I’ve only done sprints as of now, but plan on oly and half distances next year. Its definitely doable. Where are you going to school?
Same here as far as not married, no kids etc…going to National University, Lombard, IL.
Put tris on hold this year to finish up prerequisites…
Seems some people do short tris. I know of a grad student in Organic Chem did IM Wisconsin last year as she was finishing up her dissertaion and getting ready to defend …couldn’t figure out how she had enough energy left to study/write and prepare with IM training.
/////I just browsed through other posts and I still disagree about grad school, especially in the sciences, being a waste.///
I don’t think I said grad school was a waste in my original post. The general theme I was trying to get across to the OP was that one should be very reflective on their motivations for attending grad school because it is not worth the time, effort, financial loss (at least in the sciences) if it is not something that one has wanted to do their whole life. I have many classmates who are unhappy because this is not what they want to do in their life now or in their future and I think they could have saved themselves a lot of pain by being more reflective on what they wanted in life.
I have been able to train quite consistently, but it comes with some serious sacrifices that not all people are willing to make. And it is funny how much my personal life has changed since this thread started and how much I am able to train now.
I agree being a tenured prof. at a major research insitution has many advantages and I hope to obtain such a position for myself, but that does not mean most people want (or want to work for) the same thing I do. The questions I have been interested in studying since as long as I can remember have often aligned with a research setting at a university but in my limited experience many fellow grad students do not have a list of questions that keeps them up at night and most of them do not need a tenure track job to pursue their life goals. I was trying to impart this experience to the OP, but I don’t think it is easy advice to take; it is much easier to just apply to school and delay moments of self-reflection.
I read phdcomics pretty regularly and I agree it is great to see there are a lot of grad students all in the same boat.
