If your mind is so “open” then why aren’t you open to the idea of Islam? \
Because Brian isn’t the one shouting about how open minded he is- you are. “Look at me, I’m so open minded, and you Christians are such close minded idiots. You’ll never, never, never, NEVER convince me! NEVER!”
If your mind is so “open” then why aren’t you open to the idea of Islam?
Where have I said that I wasn’t?
As for Christianity, been there, got forced fed but threw it back out.
So being presented with something (taught) is…by your words…“force fed.”? Interesting. Were you force fed Algebra? Evolution? The Big Bang? Physics?
Serious question – Since we seems to be males posting at this time – I will put it in a male perspective and even add a Christian aspect.
Your wife becomes a stray sheep -
At what point do you leave her?? #5 ?? #6 ?? #9 ??
Say she goes all the way to #10 – then two years later says she is sorry - wants forgiveness and wants to put your marraige back together?? Do you take her back??
I actually understand “forgiving her” – but that is different from trusting her and letting her back into your life.
Sparticus . . . I’m just kind of wondering how many marriages end in divorce because one of the spouses turns into a Satanic, drug addicted, child beating, thieving slut?
Leave her at #2, get back together at #9 
.
Don’t you watch Springer?
This is an extreme example, don’t you think?
I guess I’d cross that bridge when and if I got to it…however, I’d first get her the therapy she needed…both psychological and drug abuse. Then go from there.
Christ forgives alot…and forgives us for our sins. We’re human and born with sin. Living in Christ’s shadow is hard and we’re apt to fail. This would certainly be a hard act to forgive…I’ll admit. Can’t say one way or the other right now.
There are many examples in the Bible that talk of forgiveness. The prostitute that washes Jesus’ feet…the son that squanders his father’s money comes home and is forgiven…
Sparticus . . . I’m just kind of wondering how many marriages end in divorce because one of the spouses turns into a Satanic, drug addicted, child beating, thieving slut?
I bet a few have.
Was channel surfing and paused on Dr. Phil – this was a woman who stayed with her abusive husband – Dr. Phil was “Why are you staying with this guy??” – I flipped the channel and didn’t hear the answer
Point is – at what point is enough - enough??
Your wife likes to sleep around with other men?? IS that enough ??
Your wife starts doing drugs and beats the kids?? Is that enough??
Point is – at what point is enough - enough??
The point is, “enough” should be a lot more than it usually is.
Sparticus, I think your question is a fair one. Yet, I think it can be an individual choice—up to a point—without being considered a total failure. In other words, as Casey pointed out, although God hates divorce, the Bible does provide an out in certain circumstances (e.g., adultery). Yet, the example we have from Christ is that He never leaves the church even after the church has done basically the equivalent to all your examples to Him. In the book of Hosea, Hosea’s wife is a prostitute who keeps returning to prostitution; but, God tells Hosea to keep her as his wife. God’s direction to Hosea to stay with his wife (who symbolizes Israel/church) and the example set before us in Christ is yet another example of how Christ sets a perfect standard of righteousness that we are called to meet … yet we fail. Fortunately, our salvation is based on Christ fulfilling all righteousness; not anything we do.
How far would I go? My hope is that I would go all the way, but it’s hard to say without it actually happening. It’s a good question that we should all consider.
"Because Brian isn’t the one shouting about how open minded he is- you are. “Look at me, I’m so open minded, and you Christians are such close minded idiots.”
No I never felt Christians are closed minded idiots I never said that and definitely need not shout anything. It’s not my style to shout down people is it yours?. You’re so defensive.
There are a huge proprtion of people who are religious and for sure they are not all idiots. But religion for sure does limit certain freedom of thought and options if one is going to dedicate his/her undying faith to any one.
What I did say is that a large proportion of Christians are enthusiastic and pesky recruiters are they not?
1) If your mind is so “open” then why aren’t you open to the idea of Islam?
Where have I said that I wasn’t?
An open mind does not mean merely looking at it in some superficial way but being willing to become a believer as you have in your present faith. My point in this is you are asking me to ‘open’ my mind to Christianity which is really a paradox because ‘opening’ my mind to your one religion and accepting it as my own is closing my mind to anything else that is different. That is severely limiting my options to think for myself and is just the opposite to ‘opening’ my mind to Christianity. You should really say why don’t you close your mind and follow my faith.
2) As for Christianity, been there, got forced fed but threw it back out.
So being presented with something (taught) is…by your words…“force fed.”? Interesting. Were you force fed Algebra? Evolution? The Big Bang? Physics?
Here we go again, first it’s dedication to sports being the same thing as religious fervor and now it’s this. Well maybe I should call you Mr Rubber Band for your stretching abilities. But what else should we expect from someone who can equate a religious belief and ‘relationship’ with his maker with a marraige to one’s wife? Stretchy-stretch!
It’s this kind of stretching for one, that further convinces me that you guys really are here in body but have already migrated somewhere else in the mind. The logic inevitably get’s twisted to suit the belief. And no matter how twisted the analogies get you Guys actually believe it. …sigh. I won’t even touch on where the soul is going cuz you have all the answers to that for sure and that could be another major thesis.
No I never felt Christians are closed minded idiots I never said that
No? Remember any of this?
And yet such a large proportion of our population are willing to forego much of this precious gift by blindly following something we self created called institutionalized religion.
From what I can see many ‘True Believers’ of all the various religions are simply not doing the correct things by standards of logic and reason, but rather from religious fervour or usubstantiated teachings or rules and often extreme hypocracy.
I’m sure you good religious folk have your beliefs set in stone anyway
Although your brain is already brain washed to believing it, not everyone needs your brand of salvation.
It’s this kind of stretching for one, that further convinces me that you guys really are here in body but have already migrated somewhere else in the mind.
The logic inevitably get’s twisted to suit the belief. And no matter how twisted the analogies get you Guys actually believe it.
**
** But religion for sure does limit certain freedom of thought**
How’s that?
She sounds really great…I would kill her in France and fly back right away…then move to Mexico and start a new life.
Sparticus . . . I’m just kind of wondering how many marriages end in divorce because one of the spouses turns into a Satanic, drug addicted, child beating, thieving slut?
Eleven.
Almost all institutionalized religions limit the freedom of free thought because they dictate to people what to believe and how to act. Just a simple fact, don’t take it so personally. Again I’m not calling anyone an idiot, whether they have religion or not.
"But religion for sure does limit certain freedom of thought
How’s that? "]
Well I’ve already explained why I feel it is so in so many ways over my last several posts and again above. If you don’t want to or can’t accept the explainations, then don’t, but why ask for more of the same? The smart thing for us to do is just treat it as a discussion of differing opinions. If you are that committed to your beliefs and can see no basis in what I’m saying why bother getting uptight? There’s a saying, “Only the truth hurts.”
Almost all institutionalized religions limit the freedom of free thought because they dictate to people what to believe and how to act. Just a simple fact, don’t take it so personally.
Believe me, I’m not taking much of what you’re writing on this topic personally.
As to the idea that it’s a “simple fact,” that’s really just ridiculous. “Dictating” to people what to believe and how to act? Give me a break. I guess you must think that most governments, including ours, limits freedom of thought. Come to think of it, I suppose you must think that education itself limits freedom of thought.
There’s freedom of thought, and then there’s anarchy of the mind. Without any limits at all, the intellect ends up eating itself.
As far as who’s more free to think, a materialist or a person of faith, I’m pretty sure Chesterton settled that question definitively almost 100 years ago, in “Orthodoxy.” Maybe you should check it out, being the open minded sort of fellow that you are.
Again I’m not calling anyone an idiot
Do I need to re-post that series of quotes from you?
As to the idea that it’s a “simple fact,” that’s really just ridiculous. “Dictating” to people what to believe and how to act? Give me a break. I guess you must think that most governments, including ours, limits freedom of thought. Come to think of it, I suppose you must think that education itself limits freedom of thought.
Come on, Vitus…did you ever read Orwell’s 1984? The thought police!!!
I figgered I’d save you the trouble of a trip to the library to check out “Orthodoxy,” kangaroo. Here’s a relevant excerpt:
For we must remember that the materialist philosophy
(whether true or not) is certainly much more limiting than any religion.
In one sense, of course, all intelligent ideas are narrow.
They cannot be broader than themselves. A Christian is only
restricted in the same sense that an atheist is restricted.
He cannot think Christianity false and continue to be a Christian;
and the atheist cannot think atheism false and continue to be an atheist.
But as it happens, there is a very special sense in which
materialism has more restrictions than spiritualism.
Mr. McCabe thinks me a slave because I am not allowed to believe
in determinism. I think Mr. McCabe a slave because he is not
allowed to believe in fairies. But if we examine the two vetoes
we shall see that his is really much more of a pure veto than mine.
The Christian is quite free to believe that there is
a considerable amount of settled order and inevitable development
in the universe. But the materialist is not allowed to admit
into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism
or miracle. Poor Mr. McCabe is not allowed to retain even the
tiniest imp, though it might be hiding in a pimpernel.
The Christian admits that the universe is manifold and even
miscellaneous, just as a sane man knows that he is complex.
The sane man knows that he has a touch of the beast, a touch of
the devil, a touch of the saint, a touch of the citizen. Nay,
the really sane man knows that he has a touch of the madman.
But the materialist’s world is quite simple and solid, just as
the madman is quite sure he is sane. The materialist is sure
that history has been simply and solely a chain of causation,
just as the interesting person before mentioned is quite sure
that he is simply and solely a chicken. Materialists and madmen
never have doubts.
Spiritual doctrines do not actually limit the mind as do
materialistic denials. Even if I believe in immortality I need not
think about it. But if I disbelieve in immortality I must not
think about it. In the first case the road is open and I can
go as far as I like; in the second the road is shut. But the case
is even stronger, and the parallel with madness is yet more strange.
For it was our case against the exhaustive and logical theory of
the lunatic that, right or wrong, it gradually destroyed his
humanity. Now it is the charge against the main deductions
of the materialist that, right or wrong, they gradually destroy
his humanity; I do not mean only kindness, I mean hope, courage,
poetry, initiative, all that is human. For instance, when
materialism leads men to complete fatalism (as it generally does),
it is quite idle to pretend that it is in any sense a liberating force.
It is absurd to say that you are especially advancing freedom
when you only use free thought to destroy free will. The determinists
come to bind, not to loose. They may well call their law the “chain”
of causation. It is the worst chain that ever fettered a human being.
You may use the language of liberty, if you like, about
materialistic teaching, but it is obvious that this is just as
inapplicable to it as a whole as the same language when applied
to a man locked up in a mad-house. You may say, if you like,
that the man is free to think himself a poached egg. But it is
surely a more massive and important fact that if he is a poached egg
he is not free to eat, drink, sleep, walk, or smoke a cigarette.
Similarly you may say, if you like, that the bold determinist
speculator is free to disbelieve in the reality of the will.
But it is a much more massive and important fact that he is not free
to raise, to curse, to thank, to justify, to urge, to punish,
to resist temptations, to incite mobs, to make New Year resolutions,
to pardon sinners, to rebuke tyrants, or even to say “thank you”
for the mustard.
I wish I could but your tone tells me otherwise.
Of course I don’t think that of education, but I do think you’re trying to stretch an analogy beyond what is stretchable.
Don’t get your point. You can explain it further if you want to take the trouble. Ditto for number 4) below.
You see there you go re:, above: “Maybe you should check it out, being the open minded sort of fellow that you are.” Ths kind of sarcastic tone logically means personal reaction and your posts are peppered with such
5) "Again I’m not calling anyone an idiot
Do I need to re-post that series of quotes from you? "
Please do if you think it makes a diff. After all I already did entertain that accusation with an honest explaination.
Talk about the plusses and minusses for Institutionalized Religions. Substantiated opinions would be best. Since you’re for religion why don’t you just give us the ‘skinny’ on why you’re convinced you’re hooked up to the ‘real’ truth of the universe? If you want to refute me why not focus on why you think my opinions are ridiculous or unsubstatiated with substantiated replies of your own? I reckon it’s a whole lot better than just making snide remarks with no enlightment on the topic itself.
I for one am awaiting your ENLIGHTENMENT! Sceptical I may be because at this stage I believe I have just about heard it all, but no sarcasm meant cuz if it is genuiney logical I for one will certainly give it due consideration and am even prepared to modify my outlook.