Gitmo + Abu Ghraib = One & The Same (The Schmidt Report)

I thought Andrew Sullivan (a Neo-Con BTW) has a pretty good summation of the Schmidt report. In a nutshell, what happened at Abu was likely sanctioned as the methods utilized were refined at Gitmo:

ABU GHRAIB - AUTHORIZED: Maybe you still remember the shock of seeing the photographs of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib. More gruesome images are on their way, and may well be released within a month. What we saw - the use of barking dogs, people shackled to the floor, sexual abuse, a man dragged around on a leash like a dog, simulation of gay sex, references and threats to relatives - was indeed shocking. But we were emphatically told by the administration that none of this was policy, that all of it was dreamed up by some nutjobs on the night shift who got their ideas from bad television or their own demented psyches. When some of us pointed out that there was clear evidence that some of these techniques were authorized, that, indeed, the commander of Guantanamo Bay, had been sent to Abu Ghraib to “Gitmoize” it, we were told we were slandering the troops and the administration.

SCHMIDT’S BOTTOM LINE: One great merit of the Schmidt report - which is otherwise riddled with worrying euphemisms, dismissal of troubling facts, exoneration of almost all commanders - is that we now know that almost every one of the Abu Ghraib techniques was practised and innovated at Guantanamo. These were not improvised out of nowhere. They were what the report calls “the creative application of authorized interrogation techniques,” and the interrogators “believed they were acting within existing guidance.” Here’s a list of techniques used at Gitmo. You might find some of them familiar: * interrogators “brought a military working dog into the interrogation room and directed it to growl, bark and show teeth”

  • some prisoners were restrained with “hand restraints connected directly to an eyebolt in the floor”
  • one interrogator “tied a leash to hand chains, led around the room through a series of dog tricks.”
  • a prisoner was pinned down while a female interrogator straddled him
  • a prisoner was told he was gay and forced to dance with another male
  • one prisoner had his entire head duct-taped because he refused to stop “chanting passages from the Koran;” one had his Koran removed; another had an interrogator squat over his Koran on a table, while interrogating him; another had his Koran urinated on.

If you recall Abu Ghraib, you will remember how almost every one of these techniques was deployed on the night shift. This is a critical point. The kind of techniques used in Abu Ghraib - sexual humiliation, hooding, use of dogs, tying prisoners up in “stress positions”, mandatory nudity, humiliating prisoners for their religious faith, even the famous Lynndie England leash - were all developed at Guantanamo Bay under the strictest of supervision. What we were told were just frat-guy, crazy techniques on the night shift - had been deployed by the best trained, most tightly controlled, most professional interrogation center we have. The Schmidt report argues that, while some of this was out of bounds, it was only because of some extra creativity, not because the techniques themselves were illicit, or unauthorized by Rumsfeld and Bush. Abu Ghraib is and was policy - just policy absorbed by ill-trained, unprofessional hoodlums. But those hoodlums didn’t get their ideas from thin air. They got them from the Pentagon and the White House.

THE OTHER T-WORD: Was it torture? Well, in the Clintonism deployed by the Bushies, that all depends on what the meaning of torture is. In some ways, it’s a useful thing that this report comes out at a time when the threat of Jihadist mass murderers is still fresh in our minds. The balance between the threat they pose and the methods we use to interrogate them is a precarious and difficult one. And in two cases - of high value detainees - we have a detailed account of what they experienced. This has not been reported in the newspapers, but it is graphic. Make your own mind up about whether this amounts to torture. I’d say that use of aggressive techniques against high-level members of al Qaeda is easily the most defensible use of “coercive interrogation.” But hundreds of others - including many innocent prisoners at Abu Ghraib - found themselves dealing with the consequences of allowing this to become policy. All the following facts come from the Schmidt report. They amount to the minimum abuse that might have occurred. Each incident has been corroborated.

THE FIRST DETAINEE: One high-value detainee was subjected to the following: He was kept awake for 18 - 20 hours a day for 48 of 54 consecutive days, he was forced to wear bras and thongs on his head, he was prevented from praying, he was forced to crawl around on a dog leash to perform dog tricks, he was told his mother and sister were whores, he was subjected to extensive “cavity searches” (after 160 days in solitary confinement) and then “on seventeen ocasions, between 13 Dec 02 and 14 Jan 03, interrogators, during interrogations, poured water over the subject.”

This latter is a very curious statement. Presumably, the interrogators weren’t refreshing the detainee. This, I infer, was “water-boarding,” a technique finessed by the French in Algeria, where water is poured over a person’s face to bring them to the point of drowning, and then released from suffocation at the last minute. Later in the report, we are told that this was done not just seventeen times but “regularly” as a “control measure.” All this was “legally permissible under the existing guidance.” That guidance was crafted by John Yoo, approved by Alberto Gonzales and signed by the president. Rumsfeld himself personally signed off on this interrogation. If anyone tells you that president Bush had nothing to do with what happened at Abu Ghraib, then hand them a copy of this report. But was it torture? Your call. If it happened to you, what would you call it? The Schmidt report calls it “degrading and abusive treatment.”

THE SECOND DETAINEE: But there’s another detailed account worth absorbing. It’s what happened to another high value detainee. Call him Detainee B. B cracked under interrogation and some of the approved techniques were never used as a result. But when he cooperated, he told one interogator of what he called previous torture. He said he had been sexually abused: “female interrogators removed their BDU tops and rubbed themselves against the detainee, fondled his genitals, and made lewd sexual comments, noises and gestures.” The report concludes that the interrogators “used their status as females” to interrogate, but cannot corrobroate the specific charges. Recall that this kind of sexual stuff - including the smearing of fake menstrual blood on a detainee’s face - were specifically developed to offend strict Muslims. Detainee B also claimed he’d been beaten up. A physician found “rib contusions,” “an edema of the lower lip” and a “small laceration” on his head. Then it gets interesting. During the interrogation process, an interrogator posed as a captain in the Navy and told detainee B that they had captured his mother, and if she and he did not cooperate, she’d be sent to Gitmo as well. Then they sent in a masked interrogator. (The report says that “this was done in case the interrogation team wanted to iuse that interrogator later in another role.”) This masked man then told the detainee a story: He told that he had a dream about dying. Specifically he told that in the dream he ‘saw four detainees that were chained together at the feet. They dug a hole that was six feet long, six-feet deep, and four foot wide. Then he observed the detainees throw a plain, pine casket with the detainee’s identification number painted in orange lowered into the ground.’ The masked interrogator told the detainee that his dream meant that he was never going to leave Gitmo unless he started to talk, that he would inded die here from old age and be buried on ‘Christian … sovereign American soil.’ On 20 jul 03 the masked interrogator, “Mr. X” told that his family was ‘incarcerated.’

The detainee was later told that his family was “in danger.” Then they sent in a fake messenger to “deliver a message to him:” “That message was simple: Interrogator’s colleagues are sick of hearing the same lies over and over and are seriously considering washing their hands of him. Once they do so, he will disappear and never be heard from again. Interrogator assured detainee again to use his imagination to think of the worst possible scenario he could end up in. He told detainee that beatings and physical pain are not the worst things in the world. After all, after being beaten for a while, humans tend to disconnect the mind from the body and make it through. However, there are worse things than physical pain. Interrogators assured detainee that, eventually, he will talk, because everyone does. But until then he will very soon disappear down a very dark hole. His very existence will become erased. His electronic files will be deleted from the computer, his paper files will be packed up and filed away, and his existence will be forgotten by all. No one will know what happened to him and, eventually, no one will care.”

Eventually, detainee B said he was “not willing to continue to protect others to the detriment of himself and his family.” Even the Schmidt report concluded that threatening someone’s life and the life of his family violates US military law, but is not “torture” as redefined by president Bush.

SOME CAVEATS: Some things to be aware of. This is not an independent report. It recommends mild reprimands at best. All of this occurred because interrogators “believed they were acting within existing guidance.” Their failures were just of being over-creative. Some officers lied about these incidents at first: “The JTF-GTMO Commander’s testimony that he was unaware of the creative approaches taken in the interrogation is inconsistent with his 21 Jan 03 letter to CDR USSOUTHCOM in which he asserts that the CJTF approved the interrogation plan in place and it was followed ‘relentlessly by the command.’” Why lie if everything was hunky-dory? The investigation took place not on the basis of detainee allegations, but because FBI staff objected. The real details of the interrogations were often not subject to corroboration. What happened in those cells will always remain to some extent a mystery. Also: “several past interrogators at GTMO declined to be interviewed.” What you call this is semantic and subjective. But we do know one thing. When president George Bush said that the vile practices recorded at Abu Ghraib did not represent America, he was right. They don’t. They represent his administration and his policies. Of that there can no longer be any reasonable doubt.

Why do you hate America?

(kidding)

I’ve only been saying as much on this forum for months…but Brian and all the self proclaimed military experts know better. Its pretty obvious that the torture techniques used in Abu Ghraib were carefully tailored to humiliate Muslim men, and humiliation techniques have also been used in Gitmo.

THe grunts on the ground were trained or were told what to do and how to do it by someone who was well versed in sensory deprivation and humiliation techniques. Anyone who thinks Lynddie England was the Abu Ghraib mastermind is either blind or a fool.

Bush is Hitler. I mean that kind of shit only happened in the concentraion camps. Heart braking.

*** a prisoner was pinned down while a female interrogator straddled him**

Is this the same female interrogator who exposed her breasts to the detainee, then reached into her panties and smeared fake menstrual blood on her fingers?

Silly me, thinking the purpose of these tactics is to demean and humiliate the detainees. Apparently, the idea is to deman and humiliate the interrogator.

Did you know that Hitler used to do that? GODDAMN YOU HITLERBUSH! THE JEWS ARE NEXT!!! EVERYONE RUN!!!

Yawn.

It’s boring thread already figured I would join in.

While I certainly do not condone what has happened at Abu Ghraib, or any cases of abuse anywhere, let us realize the difference between us and our enemies…we are flagellating ourselves over “humiliating” prisoners, while prisoners of the enemy are really tortured and executed, sometimes by being beheaded with a knife.

Spot

While I certainly do not condone what has happened at Abu Ghraib, or any cases of abuse anywhere, let us realize the difference between us and our enemies…we are flagellating ourselves over “humiliating” prisoners, while prisoners of the enemy are really tortured and executed, sometimes by being beheaded with a knife.

Spot

Exactly…I would rather hold 99 men for three extra months and make them dance around in panties and a hood than to have another 9/11.

Lets protect the people who hate us and want nothing more than to kill (not embarass) innocent people. We should profile in order to beat terrorism. We will not give up. If you don’t get it, then that is too bad. At least we have great leadership which understands what we are up against.

Did you forget to include those who were released from Gitmo who said they were told to fabricate their stories because they new the backlash that would come from the rediculously liberal american press? How about the prisoner who was wounded in battle, given a replacement leg, released, and subsequently captured fighting again? How the man who claimed that the conditions and living environment in Gitmo were the best he and some others had ever had in their lives (more food, better health care…)

Before sympathizing with the prisoners, ask yourself this question, “did they sympathize with the americans and other foreign aid workers who were de-capitated in Iraq, or did they sympathize with the murderous terrorists, what about on 9/11 or in london last week?” If you are in gitmo, then you are either a bad dude, or you run with the wrong crowd; there had always been a saying of “you are who you hang with,” and if your buddy runs with Al Queda, then I think we should ask you a few questions…

We are worse then the prisoners. We suck! OH GOD WE VOTED HITLER IN OFFICE! WE MADE PRISONERS UNCOMFORTABLE!

WHY?!!! DEAR GOD WHY?!!!

First off, I don’t see what someone else doing something wrong has to do with what we do.
If my co-worker steals 5 computers that doesn’t make it morally acceptable for me to steal only 2.

Also, the Abu Ghraib abuse is about a lot more than stress positions and making people uncomfortable. We’re talking about rape, even the rape of children. We’re talking about murder.

We’ve only seen what the Pentagon wants us to see. They’ve shown friendly politicians more, but do not speak as if we know what all really happened there. http://www.showmenews.com/2004/May/20040512News026.asp

– Senators are getting a look at more photos of U.S. soldiers brutalizing Iraqi prisoners but won’t have the authority to release the pictures that the Pentagon warns could deepen international fury over the abuses. –

We cannot tell the truth about what we are doing in Iraq because it would piss people off. That’s a fact. That’s Pentagon policy. Hooray America.

Here’s murder:

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/dead-iraqi1.jpg

Here’s rape:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/08/iraq/main616338.shtml

– Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told reporters, “The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here. we’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience.” He did not elaborate. –

Audio of Seymour Hersh talking about military sources telling him about child rape.

Here are some more Hersh quotes:

– I went to Damascus in Christmas of 2003 to interview an Iraqi – a high ranking Iraqi officer that somehow had escaped being imprisoned by us. We – many of the Ba’ath party leadership are still in a prison --Camp Cropper, I think, in Baghdad. And he came out to Damascus to see me, and he told me – we spent three days – and in one afternoon he told me a great deal about Abu Ghraib. Again, without a video camera, without a photograph of it. And one of the things that was most compelling about it was the women were writing letters to their families – women in jail – saying, “Please come kill me. I have been abused. Come kill me.” So, you know – an Israeli I know said to me, he said, “You know, I hate Arabs.” This is an old-time guy. Old-time military guy, old-time Mossad-type guy – intelligence guy. “I hate Arabs. I’ve been killing them for 50 years and they’ve been killing us for 50 years.” And he said, you know, “Let me tell you something, Hersh. But one day we know with a wall, without a wall, we’re going to have to live with those s.o.b.'s sometime. And let me say this to you: If we treated our prisoners the way you treated prisoners, we could never do that.” –

Dude, the fact that you have changed your signature to a quote from Kent (“Jesus, is that you?”) is admirable. This is the second time I have been moved to comment on your signature choices.

Kudos, sir. Inspired.

First of all, I never said that what they do makes what we do acceptable…merely to put it into perspective. Go back and read my post. Second, much of what you have posted is old, and none of the claims of rape, child rape, and murder have not been proven. Thirdly, I do not believe a single word that comes out of Seymour Hersh’s mouth. His story on the airborne raid into Afghanistan by the US Army Rangers was so riddled with mistakes (that he claimed were direct quotes from military officers, much as he is doing here) that anything he says is suspect, especially when he claims he is getting it from military officers.

Spot

spot:


First of all, I never said that what they do makes what we do acceptable…merely to put it into perspective.

That’s moral equivocation and it’s bullshit.
There is no need for “perspective”. We are not obligated to behave this way simply because others do things that might be considered worse.


Second, much of what you have posted is old, and none of the claims of rape, child rape, and murder have not been proven.

Oh… was that guy packed in ice taking a nap?
Also, what investigations have actually gone on?

Do you think Republican congressmen are lying about what they saw in the classified photo and video?


Thirdly, I do not believe a single word that comes out of Seymour Hersh’s mouth. His story on the airborne raid into Afghanistan by the US Army Rangers was so riddled with mistakes (that he claimed were direct quotes from military officers, much as he is doing here) that anything he says is suspect, especially when he claims he is getting it from military officers.

What about the Republican Senator from South Carolina? crickets chirping

Further, you’re going to have to educate me on the “mistakes” on Hersh’s story. Hersh is one of the hardest-working, most respected journalists alive. You’re really going to have to do something aside from the usual right-wing blogger “OMG he’s so stupid what a liberal dumbass” crap to make any sense.

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/050714/lester.gif
.

How dare you! That cartoon is not funny. HITLERBUSH has made the Army put panties on a man’s head. There is nothing funny about that. He is Muslim and that is sooo degrading. At least the Islamic/Muslim/terrorist/insergent/freedom fighters/friends of the working man just cut the heads off not embrassing anyone.

I think I’ll draw a cartoon where that dancing guy is a 15-year-old kid and one of those soldiers is ass-raping him.

That would be totally hilarious.

“That’s moral equivocation and it’s bullshit.
There is no need for “perspective”. We are not obligated to behave this way simply because others do things that might be considered worse.”
You may think that there’s no difference between humiliating somebody and beheading them, but I do.

"Oh… was that guy packed in ice taking a nap?
Also, what investigations have actually gone on?

Do you think Republican congressmen are lying about what they saw in the classified photo and video?"

"What about the Republican Senator from South Carolina? crickets chirping

A year on, we would have had charges levied against those accused of murder or rape–there has been a pretty lengthy investigation of Abu Ghraib. And in the case of the dude on ice, the SEALs accused of murder were exonerated. I don’t know what was shown to the congressmen, but I’m pretty damn sure that if there was video of rape and murder, that would have been out in the news by now.

Further, you’re going to have to educate me on the “mistakes” on Hersh’s story. Hersh is one of the hardest-working, most respected journalists alive. You’re really going to have to do something aside from the usual right-wing blogger “OMG he’s so stupid what a liberal dumbass” crap to make any sense. "

I submit that “most respected” only among liberals who want to believe the slop he writes. In the story on Afghanistan, Hersh cites numbers as coming from officers that are patently false. For example, he claims that he was told that 16 AC-130s were overhead. This is impossible…the USAF only owns 21 AC-130s. The likely right answer is probably 2. He also states that the operation used 100 Delta operators…again, based on total numbers, this is a falsehood. He has similar credibility issues in his story smearing Gen. Barry McCaffrey about the last battle of the Desert Storm and his book on the shootdown of KAL 007.

Spot


You may think that there’s no difference between humiliating somebody and beheading them, but I do.

Sure there’s a difference.
There’s a difference between someone hacking their grandmother to death with an axe and me shoplifting a couple of CDs, but what’s the point of bringing up grandma-hacker when the subject is my stealing CDs?


A year on, we would have had charges levied against those accused of murder or rape–there has been a pretty lengthy investigation of Abu Ghraib.

So I’m supposed to trust that if anything bad had happened (1) the military would have been 100% open and forthright about it and (2) it would have happened by now?

Is there any historical precedent for the idea that the military actually punishes people adequately for their crimes?

347 civilians were slaughtered in the My Lai massacre. As a result, the military sent ONE person to prison, Lt. William Calley. Calley served 3.5 years of house arrest.

347 dead women, children and elderly and one man serves 3.5 years of house arrest.

The military is all about lying, covering up and patting brutal soldiers on the back. It’s not popular to say, but it is 100% true.

They learned from Vietnam. They showed us a couple of semi-shocking pictures, showed some more stuff to congressmen who were told to not talk about it. And it’s gone. poof

Well, it’s gone in our collective mind, but the victims know and the victims tell their story and then people around the world know and we act surprised when they “hate” us. The government is lying to you and it is a matter of public record. They can tell you they are lying to you and you love it, you eat it up.


And in the case of the dude on ice, the SEALs accused of murder were exonerated.

Of course they were, what does that have to do with the truth?


I don’t know what was shown to the congressmen, but I’m pretty damn sure that if there was video of rape and murder, that would have been out in the news by now.

So what you’re saying is that the Republican senators and congressmen who saw stuff we haven’t been allowed to see and say they saw rape are lying?

Why are they lying? Why?


In the story on Afghanistan, Hersh cites numbers as coming from officers that are patently false. For example, he claims that he was told that 16 AC-130s were overhead. This is impossible…the USAF only owns 21 AC-130s. The likely right answer is probably 2. He also states that the operation used 100 Delta operators…again, based on total numbers, this is a falsehood. He has similar credibility issues in his story smearing Gen. Barry McCaffrey about the last battle of the Desert Storm and his book on the shootdown of KAL 007.

Oh no he got some numbers wrong on aircraft and troop numbers. Wow, what a liar.
Next he’s going to say they drank Coke instead of Dr. Pepper!
You know what’s funny about the criticism of that Afghanistan article? It’s the fact that he was right about the central theme of it: We were completely ineffective in going after Mullah Omar. That mission was a disaster. We didn’t get the target. You’re picking nits of numbers of gunships? What a joke.

As for the McCaffrey story, Hersh had military sources verifying it. The fact that people don’t want to believe it doesn’t make it untrue. An official investigation from the goddam Pentagon confirmed McCaffrey ordering troops to fire on unarmed, retreating soldiers but they said it was justified. Once again, the law and morality are separate issues, especially military law. Even Lew Rockwell was with Hersh on this.

Hersh is a person who relies on imperfect sources, sure, but do not think you can have this debate with me if all you’ve got is some bullshit from angry winger blogs.

And you still haven’t addressed the Republican congressmen. You cannot escape from this one. It’s probably best to do what Tibbs is doing and just act like it’s not there.