I was thinking about this the other day. I think many of us get too fixated on a low armrest and the “amount of drop” we have.
Sometimes when guys end up with a really low armsrest position, they actually seem to end up sitting “somewhat higher”. What seems to happen is that rather then getting a good “shrug”, they have to push their upper body much higher to alleviate taint pressure, cause with the low armsrest the pressure on the armrest does not start before the taint starts getting compressed a bit. When I actually move the armrest position up even half or a full cm, this does not happen, and I am actually able to drop my head below the shoulder blades cause there is enough pressure on the armrests.
Not sure if I explained this very well, but some of you guys with really low armrests, might actually be able to ride lower overall. Also you end up with a smaller “scoop” and less chest exposed, cause your head is filling more of the gap between hands and shoulders, rather than having your head up in the air like a peacock.
Here’s Rutger’s picture from Herbert’s article, with big scoop and big drop. If I look from the side, he could lift his armrests an entire inch or more and not change his back position and close up the scoop in front of him.
I only have about 12 or 13 centimeters of drop, but with ‘customized’ extensions my elbow bend is like 160 degrees and I’m as low as I can get with 18-20 centimeters of drop. The power meter tells me it is signficantly faster than riding with a 90 degree elbow at 20.
Chad
Levi L. is a great example of this Paul. He doesnt run a lot of drop, but gets low and compact. Angling the bars up helps, being short also helps. I bought my bars up 2cm, but switched to ski bends and now lazy S bends angled upwards and have gotton lower, more comfortable and if I believe my field tests faster.
Rutger’s position looks exactly like his position on his P3. He has a lot of drop, but manages to hammer out 112mi in that position. I understand what you’re saying, but am not sure that less drop means similar/better aerodynamics for his position. I’ve experimented with a higher position myself, and found that a lower position is faster. I am kind of stretched out like Rutger, but it is faster than a higher position with my shoulders shrugged. In this pic of Rutger, it looks like he can get much more aero if he drops his head.
Also, he appears to like a very high saddle, compared to the “ST standard”.
The way I look at it, once your back is flat, there is nothing to be gained by more drop. Once the back is flat, I think making the “front end scoop smaller” results in more gain and as Chad mentions, the higher armrest makes it easier to generate more power. I am currently 9.5 cm drop (just measured it). Nose of saddle to bar clamp at stem is 51 cm. Saddle is 1.5 cm behind BB. Saddle height is 68.5 from centre of BB to top of saddle. Bike is Kuota Kalibur. Since I sit on the front third of my saddle, (nose rider), I calculate my effective seat tube angle to be closer to 81 degrees, although if you calculated to mid saddle, one would get around 77.
By the way, my back is not flat, but when I shrug it is almost there. I will try to get my son to take some videos with his video cam some time and post.
Edit: example of Trent Lowe’s small drop small scoop position:
Here’s Rutger’s picture from Herbert’s article, with big scoop and big drop. If I look from the side, he could lift his armrests an entire inch or more and not change his back position and close up the scoop in front of him.
Don’t you mean raise his hands to “close the scoop”?
BTW, it doesn’t look like he’s running a “big drop” to me…his back (as determined by a line drawn between his shoulder and his “hip joint”) is far from “level”…
The way I look at it, once your back is flat, there is nothing to be gained by more drop. Once the back is flat, I think making the “front end scoop smaller” results in more gain and as Chad mentions, the higher armrest makes it easier to generate more power. I am currently 9.5 cm drop (just measured it). Nose of saddle to bar clamp at stem is 51 cm. Saddle is 1.5 cm behind BB. Saddle height is 68.5 from centre of BB to top of saddle. Bike is Kuota Kalibur. Since I sit on the front third of my saddle, (nose rider), I calculate my effective seat tube angle to be closer to 81 degrees, although if you calculated to mid saddle, one would get around 77.
By the way, my back is not flat, but when I shrug it is almost there. I will try to get my son to take some videos with his video cam some time and post.
I’m thinking you might have to explain what you mean by a “flat back”…because it certainly doesn’t mean what I’m used to it meaning based on the pics you’ve posted as examples…
Ok bad examples. Don’t get picky on me. What I am saying is that you don’t need such a steep drop that your food is digesting uphill (at least for those of us doing half and full IM’s). My main point is guys are obsessed with drop, when that is not the only thing to worry about. Aero position needs to be something that you are still in in the final 20% of the race, and lots of guys sitting up cause of their huge drops putting pressure on the taint that is only bearable for so long…
Tom, perhaps its not a matter of how much drop you have but what you do with the drop that you have that matters, although that sounds like a discussion for a thread on noseless saddles…
You know, that pic you posted of Trent Lowe’s has him at ~15-17cm of handlebar drop. That’s pretty decent for a smaller rider.
Also, if you had looked at slowman’s fitting session with Macca, Dan mentioned that handlebar drop should be dictated by preservation of power output, and NOT point tenderness. He said that point tenderness (i.e. taint pressure) is purely a saddle issue. And Macca is an IM athlete who relies heavily on the run.
Ok bad examples. Don’t get picky on me. What I am saying is that you don’t need such a steep drop that your food is digesting uphill (at least for those of us doing half and full IM’s). My main point is guys are obsessed with drop, when that is not the only thing to worry about. Aero position needs to be something that you are still in in the final 20% of the race, and lots of guys sitting up cause of their huge drops putting pressure on the taint that is only bearable for so long…
Personally…if I was investigating TT positions for long course tris, I’d put my torso angle at what would be necessary for the “digestion” you speak of (although…I seem to recall that astronauts have no problem keeping their food down ;-)…and then start raising the bars and pushing them forward until I was in a position close to Obree’s “Superman” position.
That should allow one to perch on their “sit bones” fairly easily…and should be fast too!
You want to raise the bars? Well…don’t pussy-foot around it…RAISE the bars!
BTW, it doesn’t look like he’s running a “big drop” to me…his back (as determined by a line drawn between his shoulder and his “hip joint”) is far from “level”…
I agree. He’s locked into a trainer and it appears to me he has no riser block under the front wheel. If that’s the case, the drop is even less than what appears and the true angle of his back is even less flat. Further, because he’s on the trainer, I doubt he’s worried too much about shrugging to improve his aerodynamics.
He said that point tenderness (i.e. taint pressure) is purely a saddle issue.
I think the statement is a bit misleading. If I put you on a 30 cm drop, I bet you will feel taint pressure. There is some basic physics going on if you start drawing a free body diagram. Sure it can be helped with better saddle selection, but at some point there will be some. As for Trent’s position, I’m surprised that that picture is >6 inches of drop, but if you say so, then fine.
Tom at 9.5 cm drop , I think my armrests are plenty high…as for astronauts digesting upside down, well, they aren’t trying to do fast bike splits either and absorb food for a marathon.
OK, this is ST, who am I trying to fool. Go for your 20-25 cm drops so that people can gawk at your bikes in transition. The rest of us will be runninng out of transition when the 20 cm drop guys ride in sitting up pushing way too much wind
Fair point about no riser, but since he is on the trainer, why is he wearing a helmet? Frankly I never noticed the trainer in the original picture…just saw the helmet and assumed the guy was actually riding!
BTW, it doesn’t look like he’s running a “big drop” to me…his back (as determined by a line drawn between his shoulder and his “hip joint”) is far from “level”…
I agree. He’s locked into a trainer and it appears to me he has no riser block under the front wheel. If that’s the case, the drop is even less than what appears and the true angle of his back is even less flat. Further, because he’s on the trainer, I doubt he’s worried too much about shrugging to improve his aerodynamics.
Actually…judging by the tops of the tires against the crossbar of the gating behind him, the pic actually looks fairly level…
I bought my bars up 2cm, but switched to ski bends and now lazy S bends angled upwards and have gotton lower, more comfortable and if I believe my field tests faster.
