That is a good looking workout. I have something to try tomorrow
Looks don’t count for much…
How many people watch you under water?
I’ve seen a lot of slop when the arms are in the air, - but if you’re under 18 minutes in the 1650, - who’s to criticize that?
Dan Veatch, a sub 16:30, 1650 swimmer throws his left arm straight up into the air and slaps it down on the water with a loud WHACK… I watch in amazement… Someone who goes that fast is doing something right, - and that “right” thing is happening under the water where he’s getting one heckuva strong pull and “hold” on the water…
Well, if looks don’t count for much, then how are we to critique form?
If you mean above-water form, I’m with you. But underwater, it’s all about how it looks. Or at least is SHOULD be about how it looks.
Anyway, most of those who have observed my stroke have watched from underwater. I gotta get taped so I can post it for ST to check out.
Tells me that he could be a lot faster with some technique work: mostly, even good, experienced coaches, get in the bad habit of focusing too much on what’s going on above water. When what really is important is what happens underneath…
Check out the foundation before building. Timing is a factor too, - but 20 strokes per length tells me that someone is going to get pretty tired swimming the equivalent of a mile or more…
“under the water, carry the water, but remove the water…” - db
Whenever these threads come up, one of the things I always miss in the responses is the aspect of “learning to swim,” so I’ll speak to it here, having gone a good way through it myself.
When one picks up running, you don’t really ever hear of them “learning to run.” For the most part, unless they’re doing something really strange, some protocol of increasing frequency, volume, and intensity of their runs will produce better fitness and improved speed for a given effort. Not so with swimming, as we all know. There are aspects to technique (balance, the catch, the pull, breathing, position, etc.) that are always well-covered, and then there are the common pros/cons to swimming with a masters group versus solo, or increasing volume versus focusing on drills and shorter intervals, and so on.
The one aspect of “learning to swim” that I typically never see discussed has more to do with learning to feel the water and learning how to move through the water efficiently. I’ve seen learning to swim compared several times to learning how to swing a golf club, and I think it’s an apt analogy, since the best practitioners in each discipline seem to have an innate “feel” for the skill, but that feel is difficult at best to communicate to the uninitiated. In swimming, though, we do have an advantage in that the feel we’re trying to develop is a feel for our relationship with the medium through which we’re trying to move, and there are many ways we can improve our sense of that feel, without simply swimming endless fruitless laps with the same imperfect technique.
Simply play in the water. In my masters workouts, we frequently do under/over sets (e.g., 25 under water, then 25 easy choice), and though I absolutely dread them ('cause I suck at them), I have to say they’ve improved my feel for the water – you just have to develop a sense of how to move through the water while expending as little energy as possible. Other sets offer the same opportunity, including bi-lateral breathing (breathing every fifth, seventh, or ninth stroke) and non-free sets. On easy or recovery laps, sometimes I’ll streamline across the poll and challenge myself to see how little kicking or stroking it takes to maintain my body position and a minimum of momentum. If you’ve got kids, play with them in the pool and do handstands or dive to the bottom.
I’m not a fish by any stretch of the imagination, but my first set of 100’s back in 2003 was done on a 2:30 send-off, arriving in about 2:00, and in IM Cd’A two weeks ago, I was 213th out of the water (top 10%).
And, yes, all of this is still within the context of everything else everybody has said about volume, technique, etc.
Hope that helps!
cramer
if you can hold that for either yards or meters than set an interval of 2:00 minutes and you go every two minutes, if you make it in 1:45 you get 15 sec rest, if you make it in 1:55 you get 5 sec. rest and do five an see what you feel like and then maybe do an easy 50 and go again at the top or the bottom of the clock and if the 2:00 interval was too easy cut it down to 1:50 and do another 5 sets at 1:50 intervals. and then an easy 50 and go again at the top or at the bottom or just go a smooth 200 to 500 to mix it up. But if that time of 1:40 is Meters lLong Course and you can hammer those out like butter for 5000m meters on a 2min interval than you are not a bad swimmer, just not a fast swimmer!!! Well at least I think it is a good pace(not a fast pace) to hold on LCM if you are going to do 5000M on that interval!!! that is over a 3 mile swim!!
Just a thought, not a criticism, do you know how it feels to go fast? Ever tried a set of 100’s with fins to get you motoring along? Then try to replicate the same feeling without fins.
Great post…
I endeavor to bring this up too. You make a lot of very good points. We talk about timing, the catch, the roll, etc. I also like drills wherein people do things like push off of the wall with their had between their straight arms with hands clasped and elbows locked, - the streamline position, - then lift their heads as they’re gliding, - their hips sink. This gives someone a great “feel” for what happens when one lifts their head. Just one small example of getting a feel for swimming. Also, not only your good suggestions, but also just logging a lot of time in the water, can teach someone a lot…
Just a thought, not a criticism, do you know how it feels to go fast? Ever tried a set of 100’s with fins to get you motoring along? Then try to replicate the same feeling without fins.
Sure. I’m not that much faster, though (unless maybe I try those mondo fins!). And it sure is a demoralizer to take them off after.
Same for a pull buoy - hate those things, and mostly just make it less work since I can’t kick, but not much faster. And rotation is really hard without the 'ole kick/hips to start it.
Great post…
I endeavor to bring this up too. You make a lot of very good points. We talk about timing, the catch, the roll, etc. I also like drills wherein people do things like push off of the wall with their had between their straight arms with hands clasped and elbows locked, - the streamline position, - then lift their heads as they’re gliding, - their hips sink. This gives someone a great “feel” for what happens when one lifts their head. Just one small example of getting a feel for swimming. Also, not only your good suggestions, but also just logging a lot of time in the water, can teach someone a lot…
This (and the related post) I don’t buy. I’m looking for like :30 faster 100 speed. Something huge has to be the answer. Splashing around with the kiddies can’t be it. Did tons of that when young. Besides, what could be better for freestyle than, well, lots of freestyle? Feel for the water seems like a bogus goal devised by the fish to baffle those of us who aren’t ever going to ‘get it’. I’m closing in on a million yards, and that’s a lot of feeling water!
Swimming isn’t THAT complicated or tricky. To be as slow as I am (and some other Kona-fast friends), the “fix” should be obvious. And yet…
Ok, now I’m just pissed. Time to go swim!!!
Any good/easy ideas for u/w taping so I can do it regularly?
well i put it this way. you probably don’t put in as much swim time as you do on the bike or run or what ever sport you are best at.
this is my conclusion. Why can’t I: TT at 35mph when some skinny little biker that weighs less than me can put out more watts than me for a longer period of time, because he has the strength to pull the 53/11 and the endurance to hold it for an hour. why can’t i run even 1 sub 4 minute mile or lets just say a sub 1 hour 1/2 marathon. Because i don’t have the cardio to run at that pace. As far as swimming goes. I think it is both the cardio and the strength. most people cant pull as fast as the top swimmers, not only can’t they pull and rotate their body as fast as the top swimmers but they don’t catch/anchor as much water as the top swimmers. those goes have their forearm go vertical within 1/10th of a second after the arm enters the water and extends. then they pull all that water alot faster than you and i can. Their arms don’t slip in the water. I equate that with pulling the 53/11 the top guys can pull that all day long and sure i can pull it for a minute or so, But i will blow up. this is just like a fast guy in the water that can swim a sub 50 sec 100M Long course i may be able to hold that pace for 25 but that is it!!!
it is the strength and the cardio, but yeah form has a lot to do with it. but if i had the best form in the world there is now way i would be able to go sub 1:45 for 200M Long course the way that Phelps did!!!
I think that it would be irresponsible of me to cavalierly make a suggestion as to what might be wrong without seeing you swim. And, sometimes, I see folks that aren’t doing anything “wrong” and they’re still, as you put it, not getting it. When those times come up, - it usually means it’s time to whip out the hand paddles and pull-buoys and watch people again… and watch how they’re suffering. I’ve also seen people on a kickboard actually move backwards while they’re kicking. Much time was spent with a pair of fins, starting from the extreme basics: “kick from the hip with straight legs” etc. etc., breaking it down may cause one of those problems to surface. Other times, although it’s difficult to see, a tensed up recovery wears out the swimmer, and sometimes causes a short, choppy, incomplete catch/pull and misapplication of force, - but that doesn’t really sound like your issue…
Yep, - underwater film, - always a good idea…
shouldn’t that be like sub 1:00
to clarify, are you swimming in a 50m pool? 25, open water (that’d be cool)
or like they said, your form could suck.
could be riding low in the water etc.
a 16 yr old nzer has just gone sub 50 for 100 free and 22.50 or so for 50 free…
kicking the aussies butts
metres too…none of this yards crap.
This (and the related post) I don’t buy. I’m looking for like :30 faster 100 speed. Something huge has to be the answer. Splashing around with the kiddies can’t be it. Did tons of that when young. Besides, what could be better for freestyle than, well, lots of freestyle? Feel for the water seems like a bogus goal devised by the fish to baffle those of us who aren’t ever going to ‘get it’. I’m closing in on a million yards, and that’s a lot of feeling water!
Yes, lots of freestyle will certainly get you comfortable and confident in the water, but in your case, if you’re looking for a breakthrough, simply swimming more freestyle is obviously not likely to yield any more results than it has in the past. The point of my post was that mixing it up a bit (beyond just playing with variables of distance and intensity within a freestyle context) can teach you more about that elusive feel for the water, giving you a better opportunity to “get it.” If you’ve never done under/over sets or “hypoxic” (breathing every 7th or 9th stroke) sets or non-free, etc., then you might be surprised how much you can learn about moving through the water from trying to master them.
In just this past year, I’ve dropped about 10"/100 from my paces (able to sustain 100’s on a 1:35 (scy) send-off to a 1:25 send-off. The only change I’ve made is going from just giving these alternative sets lip service and just enough effort to get through them, to giving myself completely over to my masters coach’s advice to try to master them.
cramer
Any triathlete who can swim an 100 yard sprint front crawl, sub 1:05-1:10 is going to be in a great position to swim more than a good enough open water swim if they train some distance and build up their endurance…That’s no decent time for anyone in a Masters swim meet pool competition, - unless you’re in your 70s, - but it means that you have pretty good technique and the right “feel” for fast swimming…
As was already said, that proper application of timing, force, technique, and position, plus how much weight you have to pull around, - are all going to have an affect…
Better technique and better feel will both make you go faster.
This (and the related post) I don’t buy. I’m looking for like :30 faster 100 speed. Something huge has to be the answer. Splashing around with the kiddies can’t be it. Did tons of that when young. Besides, what could be better for freestyle than, well, lots of freestyle? Feel for the water seems like a bogus goal devised by the fish to baffle those of us who aren’t ever going to ‘get it’. I’m closing in on a million yards, and that’s a lot of feeling water!
Yes, lots of freestyle will certainly get you comfortable and confident in the water, but in your case, if you’re looking for a breakthrough, simply swimming more freestyle is obviously not likely to yield any more results than it has in the past. The point of my post was that mixing it up a bit (beyond just playing with variables of distance and intensity within a freestyle context) can teach you more about that elusive feel for the water, giving you a better opportunity to “get it.” If you’ve never done under/over sets or “hypoxic” (breathing every 7th or 9th stroke) sets or non-free, etc., then you might be surprised how much you can learn about moving through the water from trying to master them.
In just this past year, I’ve dropped about 10"/100 from my paces (able to sustain 100’s on a 1:35 (scy) send-off to a 1:25 send-off. The only change I’ve made is going from just giving these alternative sets lip service and just enough effort to get through them, to giving myself completely over to my masters coach’s advice to try to master them.
cramer
Oh, and while I do think that actually playing with your kids in the water can help (if your issue is comfort/confidence in the water), “playing” also has the larger context of how you approach your swim training to begin with. I hear quite a few people complain about their swim times/abilities, but then they also moan about the concept of increasing their swim training. I think one of the key things to my improvement (or, at least, to my embracing of the alternative sets) was to set them up in my mind as a challenge, as though I were “exploring” the water and the swim. I started tracking my bests for I.M. swims, talking to my coach about the whip kick for the breast stroke and how to make it all the way across the pool on the under/overs. By approaching the more challenging aspects of my workouts as “play,” I think it helped me to stay motivated and committed to improving in those areas, which in turn helped overall.
cramer
yep. hard swim training can be quite fun if you let it…or fun swim training can be quite hard if you let it?
used to like trouser week…where you swam 5-6km sessions in trousers for a week…
something is wrong here. 1:40s with 4x 4-5km a week. Stop right now and get some technique help. Don’t continue doing this as you will only memorize/automatize wrong biomechanics in your stroke.
I just re-read your post and noticed that you’ve said that “My coach has me doing 100’s”. Switch to a coach that can help you. I’m serious. It might sound harsh but it is what it is. You asked for help and here it is. Don’t worry about 50s or 100s. Find a coach that can help you with your stroke first.