Question for the fish in the group:
I have been working on my swim a lot lately, I was just curious to see what the thoughts were on ow to get faster in the water. My coach has me doing 100’s, but was curious to see if I should mix in some 50’s or 25m sprints too.
I am pretty consistent on my 100 times, around 1:40-1:45 but I would like to get faster but just wasn’t sure of the best approach.
(I swim about 4x a week about 4000-5000m a session)
A mixed approach is usually the best, try to vary the distance of the reps you do. What are you training for?
All swim with good technique - so for your times I would suggest concentrating more on technique, and keeping any sprint or aerobic reps nearer to 50m so that you can minimise the deterioration of your stroke. There is little for you to gain by doing lots of 100ms until your stroke allows you to swim faster - focus on that first.
It depends upon how those 100’s are designed. What is the rest interval? What is the purpose of the set - too swim them all out as fast as you can or to swim lots of them with little rest? Same with the 50’s. 50x50 on a short interval with a fairly high velocity is different then 15x50 balls to the wall on 4 min even though both sets will take roughly the same amount of time.
If you are swimming 16-20km/week, and “only” holding 1:40-45/100m, then there is something wrong. Are you new to swimming? In any case, I’d suggest doing longer intervals, not shorter ones.
It depends upon how those 100’s are designed. What is the rest interval? What is the purpose of the set - too swim them all out as fast as you can or to swim lots of them with little rest? Same with the 50’s. 50x50 on a short interval with a fairly high velocity is different then 15x50 balls to the wall on 4 min even though both sets will take roughly the same amount of time.
Secnond that. What are you training for?
If you were training for sprint swimming and not necissarily a Tri then you might do 50’s or 100’s all out but with a bigger rest interval between them.
If your training for long distance stuff then you will do them with much less rest. FWIW I do a set of 10x100’s at least once a week but with only 10 seconds rest in between mixed in with all my other swimming. I use that as a barometer for my pacing and fitness to see where I"m at in my training. If I do say 10x200’s I might have 20 seconds rest or 45 seconds rest if I’m dong 400’s and so on. I am doing this in training for IMWI btw.
If you mix 50’s on the set, you will be able to work at a faster pace than if only on 100’s. The interval should be shorter on the 50’s so this works perfectly. An example:
3 x ( 3 x 100 with 15secs rest + 6 x 50 with 10secs rest ) with a active recovery of say 100 in backstroke between sets.
You are logging in tons of meters per week and are swimming pretty slowly. I would question either your technique, strength, and maybe even endurance if you are going that slow. It’s hard to put a finger on this without seeing you swim.
Do you ever, and have you ever swam for an hour straight? At least once a week, sometimes twice a week, I swim 4000m or 4500 m straight without stopping. This doesn’t simulate the conditions of swimming an IM swim, - but it is better than doing a bunch of 50s with a lot of rest in between each. If you’ve never done a 4500m swim straight without stopping, - then you would be incredibly surprised at the difference between it, and a normal 1 and 1/2 Masters swim workout. Really, - they are two different disciplines. My masters team does different things with its triathletes than it does with its competitive swimmers. (Much of which, more front crawl, and the elimination of kicking, - {except in cases where the swimmer needs kick work for the repair of poor technique}). You need to balance speed work with endurance work. Speed work is not useless, as some would suggest, because properly applied strength is key to putting on a good swim that balances endurance and not being tired over time, to moving quickly enough to not keep you out there forever…
Are you lifting weights?
If you are swimming 100m repeats on 1:45 and getting a lot of rest, - that kind of training will put you on a certain plateau and not be best for open water swimming…
Now, this is an interesting topic. I often wonder about this.
What good is it to work on longer repeats when you can’t even swim a 25y “fast”. IOW, if your top speed is really low, then perhaps building that top speed (or something just short of balls-to-the-wall) first is the highest priority?
Let’s use a convenient example… me. I can swim seemingly forever at a ~1:45 pace. OK, more like 1:40 (whoopee). If I put some decent effort into it, that drops to 1:35. If balls/wall for 100y, then 1:30. For 50y w/ :10 rest, that’s more like :50, :45 and all out = :41-:42.
This ain’t a fitness issue with those distances. Dan had a cool article, titled something like The High Cost of Good Form, about the conundrum between form, volume, and speed. I am totally unconvinced that throwing down wads of yards will make any lasting difference in my speed. Fitness yes, technique, no. Somehow, some way, I have to figure out how to swim those 25y and 50y repeats A LOT faster. Busting out 1:40-paced 400s hasn’t been, and isn’t going to be, the answer. It has done literally zero for my top speed in the last year (identical times… my long swims have improved from fitness, though, so the spread between my no-effort swimming and high-effort swimming has narrowed).
Thoughts?
If balls/wall for 100y, then 1:30.
Thoughts?
(we’ve been through this before)
Your form sucks.
So: you can swim all day at 1:40/100, but your “all out” best time is 1:30. I think you need to re-define your level of “all out”.
Maybe you need to switch up your training a bit. Are you working with a tri coach or swim coach of any kind? Do you do any 50s or 25s? See what happens if you take a month and end every swim workout with 8X25 (15") hard. I mean HARD. Re-define what “all out” means to you.
My 2cents.
Strength
It’s the proper application of strength in the upper body. Swim any butterfly? Fly might help you get a better feel for timing and power and speed. (Although, fly is just as much a “timing” stroke as the front crawl). As a competitive swimmer and coach for a number of years, I can tell you that when I have a strong fly, - I’m sprinting well. When I do a lot of butterfly, - it always helps my front crawl, - but not necessarily vice versa.
You swim yards or meters? How many strokes doing front crawl do you take per length? You can tell a lot by how many strokes you take…
Thanks for the tips, I love this place!
I have a few olympic races on my schedule, but my next big race, is a half in Oct. I think I am still on my workout schedule i was using for IMAZ. I told my coach I wanted to swim more, I think I could be a little worn out swimming. I am thinking about cutting down to 2x a week for a while. my coach suggested this about 2 weeks ago.
The rest time for my 100’s have varied weekly. Usually it is a :45-1:00 rest. I have had a few weeks where the rest times were :15-:30. It is really all over the place
You swim yards or meters? How many strokes doing front crawl do you take per length? You can tell a lot by how many strokes you take…
I’m 6’ and typically take 20 strokes per length, short course yards. What can you tell about me?
(there’s a guy who has been swimming regularly at the YMCA for a good 20 years now; today I counted him at 35 strokes per length. Swear to God.)
If balls/wall for 100y, then 1:30.
Thoughts?
(we’ve been through this before)
Your form sucks.
And it’s lookin’ like we’ll be through it again periodically until I hang up my goggles.
Ken, I don’t get it. I have seen many instructors, all credible. And their criticism is of dinky little stuff. Stuff like “you let your left hand rotate a little counterclockwise before you catch/pull.” I don’t do any of the big killers, like lifting to breathe, straight-arming, wide kicking, slapping on entry, legs low, etc. Some truly great swimmers have checked me out and said “Huh, you should be a lot faster. Weird.” I just love that.
Some truly great swimmers have checked me out and said “Huh, you should be a lot faster. Weird.” I just love that.
Maybe I should shut up. My first (only) swim coach said to me “Huh, you should be a lot slower. Weird.”
Ken, you’re baiting Toenail! You’ve got to be the highest SPL swimmer for your speed. I take anywhere from -2 to +1 of yours, and I’m about 30% slower than you. So just pick up the turnover, right? Sounds so easy. Now if only it worked!
Some truly great swimmers have checked me out and said “Huh, you should be a lot faster. Weird.” I just love that.
Maybe I should shut up. My first (only) swim coach said to me “Huh, you should be a lot slower. Weird.”
LOL! I see dudes like that all the time. All the things you aren’t supposed to do, that should make you so slow. I get a good look, because often they are going right past me.
Yep…
That’s whacky for sure, - 35 strokes. Of course when we’re sprinting, our stroke rates go up. But IMO, one should make sure that one “stays with” the catch and is moving one’s body over their hand/forearm while maintaining their “lock” on the water. Someone who takes 8 strokes per length of the pool is in all likelihood holding onto their catch longer and applying more strength to their swim. I swam beside Jim Montgomery at USMS Nationals a number of years ago in the 1650. He was taking 6 to 7 strokes per length. Now he is something like 6’4", - but that was a race…
I am always counting strokes, I am always looking to swim as few strokes as possible during pace work and long swims. I am always trying to press off the wall strong in a very streamlined position, and trying to stay streamlined while swimming. And, finally, trying to make my stroke long, reaching out far ahead to lock that hand for the “catch,” and holding it as long as possible and then snapping the wrist with a final push before hand exit.
Plus time spent doing pushups, bench press, pull downs on the lat machines, and tricep presses…
Stay with the catch/hold…
So: you can swim all day at 1:40/100, but your “all out” best time is 1:30. I think you need to re-define your level of “all out”.
Maybe you need to switch up your training a bit. Are you working with a tri coach or swim coach of any kind? Do you do any 50s or 25s? See what happens if you take a month and end every swim workout with 8X25 (15") hard. I mean HARD. Re-define what “all out” means to you.
My 2cents.
I do about 1/4th of my swims with an experienced coach on deck (though their eyes are diluted across ~10 other swimmers). A get 1-on-1 time every few months.
I’ve started doing 50s and 25s at the end of ~3000y workouts for the last few months. Most swims are from the “Workouts in a Binder”. Typical is 10x50 or 16x25. HARD/all out to me means as fast as I can go, not as hard as I can go. So that’s just a touch below max effort, at which point my form erodes into a potentially shoulder-killing splashfest. 
About half-way through those things, it gets really really challenging.
My best was 10x50 on 1:00, holding :41-:43 throughout. Seems pretty speedy until I look at the clock. “WHAT? :42 again!! No WAY!!”
Unless you’re working on top end speed, :45-1:00 is ridicuously too much time to rest for 100 repeats. For an aerobic set you should be getting somewhere between 7 and 15 seconds of rest per 100. (the variation comes from wanting to always leave on a 0 or 5 to make pace clock math much easier) For an aerobic set, you’re talking about 18-25 seconds of rest per 100 to get the right rest/exertion balance.
And there should be a definite speed difference between your aerobic and anaerobic freestyle sets, and another pace difference between anaerobic and full sprint.
How about a big set of something along the lines of:
3x (50 hard/sprint on an interval that gives you 18-25 seconds rest
100 aerobic pace on 7-15 seconds of rest
100 anaerobic on 18-25 seconds of rest
100 aerobic on 7-15 seconds of rest
50 hard sprint on 18-25 seconds rest
100 easy/recovery)