Fuming over wheel question

Triathlon Forum
1

OK, some engineer or wheel builder type needs to put me in my place because here I am scrathing my head thinking , this is not good.

Question:

Given the state of materials WHY cant there be a wheel built that under regular road usage does NOT untrue ?

I have a great set now which are fine,but there is that series of spoke popping on many higher end min spoke carbon wonders etc etc that even for a person of my slight carriage (6’1.5" 195 pounds mild sarcasm)isable to rend by and far useless.

So what is the deal and why not a bullet proof wheel HUH??

2

I can barely understand your post, but here’s an answer to what I think you’re asking:

Materials are only one part of the equation. Technology and production costs are two other main components. It doesn’t do much good to invent the perfect mousetrap if it’s so expensive that no one can afford to purchase it. Also, what is regular road riding, anyway? I bet that most quality wheels can go thousands of miles without needing to be trued if they are never ridden into potholes, over bumps, into other bikers, up mountains, et cetera.

3

They’re already made. In fact they’ve been made for years and years. You want bullet proof and aero? Hed 3/Specialized Trispoke. You want bullet proof period? 36 hole Mavic Open Pro or CXP 30 or 33 rims, 14 guage straight guage spokes, and Record/DuraAce or other top end hubset. If you are knocking these wheels out of true, you are doing something wrong. Either that or you had your half-blind brother’s wife’s sister’s baby brother build them. Hell, 14 guage and 32 count spoke wheels are damn near bomb proof as well. If you are a gram weenie you are probably never going to be satisfied with the durability of your wheel sets when compared with more standard wheels. At 195 lbs you are going to be hard on wheels. Of course at 195 lbs you probably have no business being a gram weenie.

4

Ok, I’ll take a stab at this, I’m not a master wheel builder but I have built a couple hundred wheels.

Generally, I have found that wheels go out of true because of spokes loosening up. One way that this happens is from when the wheel is built, the builder doesn’t unwind the spoke when he is doing the final tension. When you turn the nipple, the spoke turns slightly too, so you need to turn past where you are going to tighten to and then back off. This amount depends on the tension and size of the spoke. To avoid this I will mark the spokes when they are loose and keep those marks forward throughout the tension process.

Another error that wheel builders make is that they don’t stress relief the wheel during and after the tensioning process.

Next, most people find that the rear wheel goes out of true more often than the front. This can happen from the left side push spokes loosening up. The left side spokes are quite a bit looser than the drive side spokes and when a lot of drive is applied to the wheel, all of the push spokes loosen up for a brief moment. Over time you may get a quarter or half turn on some of the spokes thus causing a untrue wheel. A way that some wheel builders get around this is to build a half radial rear wheel. Radial on the left side and 2 or 3 cross on the drive side. The radial spokes will be tighter than a cross pattern (but not a tight as the drive side) and will only get tighter when driving forces are applied to the wheel.

There is also the possibility of wheel, spoke and hub damage while riding. A 200 lb rider will be tough on wheels so a cyclist needs to purchase wheels according to their size and purpose. A set of training wheels would be 14 guage, 28 or 32 spokes while racing wheels could shave a little off of that. I’m 155 lbs and train on 28 spokes rear and 24 front. I race (time trial) on 24 rear and 16 front (no I don’t have a disk yet).

There are many other ways this can happen but I hope this helps some.

My 2 cents

jaretj

In case of fire, yell “FIRE!”

5

This is excellent feedback all and I thank you for that!

Yes, my current wheelset is a 36 spoked cxp33 set and after 10,000 miles, 1 true. Thats good (IMO)

As far as me being a weight weenie, yuh,I would have to agree that thats NOT a concern for me at 195. At 305, it was not a concern for me either and for that matter, weight is for selling frail objects to folks who have too much money and posit there is utility behind replacing 500 dollar wheel sets every time the terrain changes. Sure. Thats not me, but hey, thats what another chooses to do. I respect that as well.

At 305, I was able to press alot of weight (not my ass out of a chair, I power lifted), but as life went on, the light in my brain said, stroke central is ahead, so I changed my lifestyle and stopped lifting huge weights

The HED3 set was a choice, to be (future),BUT no go.It appears that the HED3 set is rated for folks under 200 (lets face it, at 195, I am at the limit and if I dont take a dump and drink alot, I am over the spec anyway.)

I have also heard that there is a “tolerance” built in as far as a true wheel with the HED3. The folks at HED were nice and very honest about this as well. I respect that.

As far as what is normal riding,I tend to get on a bike and do a 70 or 80 mile ride, I ride for a training goal or for that matter, for whatever reason, its a “normal” ride. I do understand that this is not necessarily the normal for some folks who are doing sprint training, or intervals or etc etc

Right now I have started TT training for the last few months and have started changing my usual century program and this is a challenge which I enjoy.

I am still perplexed (reduced IQ is visible here) as to why with all of the bucks out there, a person or company has not stepped up and said, hey, here is the wheelset that does not untrue. But, just like Chocolate cream pies that do not put weight on me, that appears to be a fantasy.

6

“I am still perplexed (reduced IQ is visible here) as to why with all of the bucks out there, a person or company has not stepped up and said, hey, here is the wheelset that does not untrue.”

Sure, most any company could do it, but the wheel would be so heavy that no one but you and a couple of other guys would buy it. It’s hard to justify that marketing decision. If you really are serious about bomb proof wheels, get a custom bike with 145mm rear spacing. Then you can run 48 spoke tandem wheels.

7

I’m gonna try to answer your question based on my limited understanding of physics.

How “true” a rim is is measuered horizontally (assuming the wheel is vertical). Spokes provide stability in a mostly vertical manner, with a horizontal component because they are angled toward the outside of the hub. In order to resist motion in the horizontal plan you have to provide a greater degree of horizontal strenght. This can be done with spoke tension to some degree. But because of the limited width of the hub spokes an only offer so much stability in the horizontal.

Take a simple high school physics demonstration. Get 2 people to pull a rope in opposite directions, get the strongest people in the world for that matter. Then get someone to try to press the middle of the rope down an inch, a 3 year old would work. No matter how hard they pull you can always move the rope in the horizontal plan, you will be able to move the rope in the vertical. Same concept as the vertical spokes will not be able to prevent a wheel from becoming untrue.

So unless materials become dramatically stronger, your not going to see a “bomb-proof” wheel in the near future.

9

Boys boys boys…not one smart ass remark about a disk yet?

Wheels are how you build them and ride them. I have a set up Mavic Open 4 CD Ceramic 3 Cross, 32 Wheelsmith Double Butted, Alloy nipples with Wheelsmith Spoke Prep and built (by me) with a Tensiometer onto a Record hubeset. I have never ever had to true them after thousands of miles. These are the wheels that I will lend out often if a buddy needs hoops or when I lend out a whole bike.

Building a wheel is an art. You need to play the spokes like a musical instrument. You need to dish it, tension it, releive the tension and then tension it again. You need to prep the spokes, be sure to turn the nipple not the spoke…you need to love the wheel…and in turn the wheel will love you back for mile after mile.

You also should not train day to day like adumb ass gram weenie on your “E-ums” (say Mavic) so that you can look cool with race gear on a damn Sunday morning club ride. Race wheels are just that, race wheels.

10

well I guess that why I didn’t go into engineering. Physics is way to complicated form my simple little mind.

11

Wheels are frail things. I don’t think there is a wheel out there that can’t be detroyed by overshooting a turn or catching the sharp edge of a pothole.

The sidewall of the rim is very thin, and aluminum. This dents easy if impacted on a sharp edge.

36 spoke CXP 33’s are pretty bombproof under normal riding conditions, but all it takes is one oops and it’ll be toast.

I’ve folded 36 spoke wheels before doing things that a wheel shouldn’t be asked to do. For the wheel to be bombproof it would have to weigh 6 pounds.

-SD