“**second, the long term health risks are way worse than whatever low T is supposed to do” **
I gotta disagree on this one as there is little evidence to support this claim and it goes against common sense. If my T is 700 normally and then falls to 150 (for whatever reason). Are you saying there will be negative health repercussions if I supplement back up to 500?
What a lot of people fail to see is that the vast majority of T research showing negative effects was done on people who supplement from 500 to way over therapeutic levels (think 1,200 or higher for bodybuilders). Yes, that carries negative effects. But little has been documented for supplementing back to age appropriate levels.
This video is a decent spring board for learning more about testosterone, its relation muscle growth, training and how lifestyle can affect it. The bit about overtraining is probably applicable to a fair number of people reading this:
So, you recover fast, your sex drive is fine, and you’re feeling fine. So you’re good to go. Your levels are slightly lower than the norm, but well within a standard deviation.
For the record, I had my testosterone tested only once about 3 years ago because I was extremely tired, and didn’t recover well, and it was…950ng/dL (free was high too and no, I didn’t have testicular cancer). Everything else was normal. I’d prefer slightly lower T, not being tired, and good recovery.
It’s notoriously difficult to predict anything with a single data point, for a variety of reasons, in particular, the impact of cortisol, but also standardizing the tests, when the tests are done during the day etc.
It’s a weird graph, but yes. The deltas between the different colored lines are what it’s trying to show. For men age 60, the average Total T dropped from around 500 in 1987-1989 to around 450 in 2002-2004.
** “the trial’s eligibility criteria excluded men with severely low testosterone levels, limiting the ability to make inferences about safety in this population. The authors also note that the testosterone doses and serum levels in this trial may be higher than those usually used in clinical practice and in some previous clinical trials” **
So they didn’t do the study on people with truly low T levels. And they supplemented back up to a level higher than what is clinically recommended. This goes to my point that almost all the research out there showing negative side effects of T supplementation is based on going to levels that bodybuilders would strive for. This has little bearing on what average people are using T for when they supplement to get back to age appropriate levels.
Moreover, they stated this-
“The authors caution that the ability to draw broader conclusions about the safety of testosterone therapy based on these findings is constrained by several factors, including this study’s small size and the fact that the study’s population was older and had higher rates of chronic diseases and mobility limitation than individuals in most other studies”
Also your “common sense” theory is a little shaky too. Take a look at the recent event in women’s HRT. Different hormones, of course, but turns out the older women supplementing to younger women’s hormone levels has all kinds of risks. Sometimes reality doesn’t care about “common sense.”
Edit: That said this more recent study is cautiously positive, though holding out for more data on stroke, heart attack, etc.
Evidence assumes is has some pertinence to what we are talking about. The study you initially cited clearly had too small a sample size to be relatable and specifically said it was supplementing to T levels ABOVE what is usually called for. The entire rationale behind my post was that these kinds of studies can’t be used to determine effect of T on people who are supplementing to to an age appropriate level.
Your overall T level is fine, and you sound fine accordingly. Levels range from 270-1070. Free T can easily be elevated through herbal supplements, not banned substances, and normal is above 50 or so. I had my levels checked because my mood was always off, I was constantly exhausted, and no matter how much/little sleep or training I did, nothing effected my energy levels. My overall T was 111, and free T was around 15. I was very low, outside of norm. So yes, I supplemented testosterone to get my levels back to normal. I felt a lot better. There is absolutely no “doping” benefit until you peak out way higher than normal range levels. In fact, this whole doping reference is ridiculous. There are legitimate heath risks for men associated with low testosterone, and getting levels back within normal range is healthy and should be done, if you truly were low. Your levels are good, you can change some diet or supplement with accepted herbs to bump your free T, but that’s really not necessary since your overall level is fine and you also feel fine.
And maybe to give a little background, I am 41 yrs old, 5’11", was 198 pounds, way overweight (contributing to the low T for sure). Sex drive was totally normal, so when my doctor friend suggested I get it tested due to my other complaints, I laughed it off. But getting the results and then seeing the improvements, I’ve recommended many of my friends get tested as well.
So yes, I supplemented testosterone to get my levels back to normal. I felt a lot better. There is absolutely no “doping” benefit until you peak out way higher than normal range levels. //
**I’m glad you are feeling better, I would do the same in your shoes. But “YOU” are absolutely doping in every sense and legality of the word. You see competitive sport is not meant to have a level playing field, it is to sort out those with superior attributes in many different categories. Having a high natural level of T is just one of 100’s of those categories. And we as a culture/nation/sport have decided that there are very few things one gets to do to prop up any one or many of those categories, T not being one of them(unless it is so low you can pass the TUE gauntlet). **
You did the right thing for you, but it is not legal/ moral by any stretch of the imagination for you to compete in competitive sports that regulate this sort of thing. You along with many others are under the misguided assumption that if you"only" supplement back to normal(whatever that means)levels, you are good to go. You are not good to go, you should know this fact before throwing out things that are absolutely false out there for others to read and perhaps believe…
Therapeutic Use Exemptions exist for a reason, as you mentioned. And I think I painted a picture of a perfect scenario of where a medically appropriate need exists. I do not believe in bumping T levels that are already in the normal range, or are slightly low. But if you fall way outside of normal, and are symptomatic as I was, then there are very real health risks for men, and medically appropriate increases are warranted. So what I said isn’t false, but I can appreciate your clarification.
In the same breath, we have people on here who think they are doctors, and are not, and they are giving medical advice. This isn’t a black/white answer, and has to be individual based. Although for the OP, his levels are normal and he is asymptomatic, so nothing is needed nor warranted.
And to clarify once more, you assume supplementing to increase T levels can only be done with actual Testosterone. This is false, and I personally do not believe in doing that even when medically necessary. I believe supplementing the body and doing things naturally to help boost this levels are better in the long run, all of which is also not considered doping.
Therapeutic Use Exemptions exist for a reason, as you mentioned. And I think I painted a picture of a perfect scenario of where a medically appropriate need exists. //
You painted a picture but medically needed and TUE are not one in the same. The bar is very high with a TUE, I assume you do not have one? I have friends who put in, and you basically have to be on deaths door to get it. Being just low is not the bar, in fact probably 90+% of those with low T probably get denied a TUE.
I understand your need to justify your actions and feel you in are in the right, and someday you may well be if rules for AG athletes change. But not today. Ive wrestled with this exact scenario as a thought exercise for many, many years, and like you I would take the drugs if it were absolutely about my health. But I also came to the conclusion that my racing days would be over too. It would be fun runs, workouts, and just good surf sessions for the rest of my life after that. At least until and if there were a change in attitude to geezers allowed to dope for sport. Right now there are a lot of guys like you out there competing and kicking ass with their new physiologies. It is the single biggest reason I have taken a sabbatical from most competitive sport, tired and frustrated of getting beat by guys that I never heard of. Not so big a difference at your age, but over 60 the difference of doping is major. You can take a 100th place finisher and make him a national champion in some instances. And there are so many now going to your clinics that the podiums just don’t resemble any reality that I can recall anymore…
And strange you say now you did not take T, here was your statement;
So yes, I supplemented testosterone to get my levels back to normal.
Y**ou painted a picture but medically needed and TUE are not one in the same. The bar is very high with a TUE, I assume you do not have one? **
And strange you say now you did not take T, here was your statement;
So yes, I supplemented testosterone to get my levels back to normal.
Yes, I should have clarified that supplemental statement. That was my fault, and I can see where that may have got you fired up. So no, I didn’t have a TUE, as I wasn’t using actual testosterone. Read the Cody Beals articles that were posted previously, and as that gave a good picture of some of what can be done. Supplementing with artificial T can cause the body to become reliant upon the exogenous T, and slow down even more the natural production. I don’t want to be reliant upon exogenous substances hence my desire for a natural approach. Again, sorry for that confusing statement. And I’m by no means “kicking ass” with my new physiology. I’m not even a middle of the pack guy. I’m the one that loves doing the races, and just tries not to get last. It’s just now, I sleep better at night and my mood has stabilized, and I’ve lost some weight (although, this is due to some dietary changes and not solely due to T levels, although it helps). If you feel that all these new podium guys and people beating you that you’ve never heard of is related to doping, then I can see why you are passionate about this. I personally don’t care. Personally, I compete against myself in this sport, as I don’t ever plan on setting foot on any level of podium, overall or AG. But I do want to improve and be healthy
I am extremely skeptical about rank-and-file men having mildly “Low T” being a problem that needs addressed. I think that’s a growth industry that intersects negatively with fair play in sporting activities. I’d love to stand back and say it doesn’t concern me, but more and more people who line up on start lines without real awareness or thought are getting these messages from their doctors. And why would someone question their doctor? I mean, usually these are people considered to be after our best health interests. Long story short, it’s more than a little disturbing that the message that old men need viagra and testosterone is becoming normed.
If it’s in the best interests of men to have such physician input become normative, then why would you complain?
Yes, as it stands right now taking T is not legal for racing. But let’s take a step back and look at how ridiculous that is. First, there is no proven benefit to supplementing with T back to normal levels. The benefits from doping are due to exceeding what is the medical recommendation. Next, it’s presently legal to mess with other hormones in your body (like thyroid). Add to that some of the other treatments and surgeries that technology has made available that we are perfectly accepting of. Take, for instance, stem cell treatments. Please justify how cells are taken form your body, alter them, then put back and we are totally fine with that. Lastly, no one on here has gotten there panties in a bunch of over genetic engineering. How is that even possible? Given the advances in using CRISPR it’s a pretty safe bet that places like China and Russia are already using this on humans. But not one talks about that. All we do is rant over T.
First, there is no proven benefit to supplementing with T back to normal levels. The benefits from doping are due to exceeding what is the medical recommendation.
True. I would argue not to use exogenous testosterone from a physiologic standpoint, yes, but not from a performance standpoint. The sweet T range of 400-600 doesn’t “enhance” performance and turn you into a race winner. Agree completely