Hell must be freezing over as @BDoughtie and I are agreeing a lot these days…
To answer in bulk to some of the comments:
1.) It doesn’t matter if Jesus is Lord or Jesus is King is a common phrase. Like, so is Allahu Akbar. If someone crossed the finish in TX with a flag with that phrase on it, would everybody be OK? Probably not, right?
My point is the rule is fucking stupid. Am I making an example out of Brock, as probably the most prominent example of a phenomenal performance and the exact thing the rule is meant for? Yes.
2.) With regard to Knibb – I think the fact that she’s just so dominant at middle distance, and people have assumed that would translate into IM success. And by her own lofty standard, anything but a win is viewed by most as a disappointment. It’s the Mikaela Shiffrin principle. But, y’know, Shiffrin doesn’t race every alpine discipline that much anymore, either.
If monty and I ever agree on anything, you know ST is seconds away from imploding.
The fun takeaway from TX for Knibb- in order to run faster she has to “bike smarter”, yet that only meant she was passed for the lead earlier then ever (mile 5). So how she figures that all out will be very fascinating and fun as hell Kona in 6 months.
That’s me! Definitely not going to support a guy who thinks it was a middle eastern man who brought him the result (and not his competitors) instead of the many years of 30 hour training weeks.
Passively aggressively picking on a 24 year old still trying to figure things out under the false narrative of “Oh come on IM, let’s change rules” is next level cringe. If the intent was really to discuss a rule change, they could have privately discussed with IM. But, it seems as if all new ST articles are designed to create controversy, etc. e.g. endless hookless thread.
Also, Lionel name cannot be next to Jan’s 7:27, he lost time all day to Jan and he did not go sub 7:30.
As a thought experiment, would you be ok with a flag that said “there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his messenger?” I suspect he’d have more support for such a flag doing a race in one of the Gulf states.
The content and format of the “Jesus is king is meant to make a declaration in a way that goes further than simply 'I, Brock Hoel, happen to be a of particular religious persuasion.” It is more than (for example) signing the cross or pointing to the sky as he crosses the finish line, or flying a flag that happens to have religious symbols on them (Scandinavia, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, India…) that say ‘I’m from this group or this area’
His flag is making a statement about the world in a way that’s meant to convince you. If Jesus is king, then what does this imply about non-believers or the current sociopolitical situation? At the very least declaring someone King is a political statement. Either way, he’s flying the flag to make a statement ostensibly to convince, rather than to portray himself as part of a group. (And in this specific case, the unspoken implication is ‘and every head shall bow and every knee shall bend’)
Probably inferred from the IG post I linked to, which includes:
“I said to my fiancé after the race, “That wasn’t me, I’m not that strong”. I’ve felt like this performance was possible for so long, but Gods perfect plan and timing will always prevail. In my weakness, His power is shown! All glory to Jesus Christ!”
In case it’s not painfully obvious: I have zero issue with the content of Brock’s message. I take issue with the very selective enforcement of IM’s rulebook that pretty clearly spells out this message (along with other religious examples, or a pride flag, or a transgender rights flag) is supposed to result in a DQ.
Heh, it’s kind of ironic that this charge is brought to be controversial 2000 years after the fact that it was originally levied against him before he was killed by the state.
And Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked Him, saying, “Art thou the King of the Jews?” And Jesus said unto him, “Thou sayest.”
Just to be clear, there are a lot of things that are supposed to result in a DQ or penalty that don’t get DQ’d or penaltied. Do you bring them all up as you know about them, or is this as selective as you accuse them of
It could be no one was paying attention, or had the presence of mind or wasn’t aware of the message being spread. They might not have even known about the rule. It’s not necessarily a bias for a particular religion any more than Lionel invisible line, non existent rule DQ was a bias against American racers who are only marginally Americans.
Yeah, I kind of agree with you. For me, waving a flag or sporting a cross or what not doesn’t seem like propaganda. Whereas “Jesus is king” on a big flag I guess is borderline. I’m not religious and do not very well know the holy books, so regarding your thought experiment, it’s hard for me to compare the phrases “Jesus is king” to “there is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his messenger”. Obviously there is much more info and persuasion power on the 2nd one, so I do not feel the comparison is fair. But if someone flew a “Allah Akbar” flag, I feel that would be just the same as “Jesus is king” as this means “God is great”. And for me it would be the same “borderline”. Obviously this phrase carries a different feel in the US than its original meaning, so it would not go down well.
I guess the problem is there is no Christian flag that I know about, so it’s hard to wave a flag to show your faith, so he had that one.
As a personal opinion (not regarding interpretation of the rules, on which we could write endlessly), I think it’s totally fine for him to wave that flag. I mean it’s not like he’s going out of his way to convince people to become christians, he’s just showing his faith. What’s more, we didn’t see it in the live coverage, we actually missed when he crossed the line. Which now, when I think about it, might have been on purpose because of that flag ?!
Anyway, too bad we are talking about Hoel’s flag rather than his performance. He was the only one in that front pack I didn’t know (although his name kinda rung a bell) and just assumed he would fade on the end of the bike.
I think people missing Ryan’s point here, the rule book is getting bigger every year, and only rules that are actually enforced consistently should be in the rule book, if they are not used consistently scrap them, to make it easier to read and remember the relevant rules.
On ‘rules’ the guidelines on BTA/sub-chest bottle positions designed to interpret the World Tri and Ironman rules, which we were told would be used for Pros, seem to have been relegated to a German Kehrichteimer. Many images, men and women (in the IMPS races so far plus T100 Gold Coast), show bottles in cages so far back they’d be outside the 250mm from reference point limit.
I’m with @rrheisler on ‘if there’s a rule, enforce it, or delete/amend the rule’. I think the DTU interpretation box is nugatory - the rule as written is fine. The aero gain versus hassle of a bottle so far back is so marginal as not to be worth trying to control. All this needs is a simple statement from IRONMAN saying the interpretation doc no longer applies. Or enforce it at bike check-in.
“If there’s a rule, enforce it” Which is what technical officials did for Luis’ (et al) “AeroGains” BTS egregious fairing after bike check-in on Saturday.
Ironman doesn’t want their events hijacked by political activists, which I think is a perfectly reasonable desire for any race organizer to have. But interpreting neutrality requirements too strictly can also backfire and even cause the organizers themselves to be perceived as not neutral, as we’ve seen at the recent Winter Olympics with the controversy around Vladyslav Heraskevych’s helmet. I think it makes perfect sense for Ironman to not use that rule to needlessly punish athletes for what may have been a slightly inappropriate victory celebration at worst and still keep it on the books to throw it at anybody who is actively out to be divisive and disruptive.
There is one, although it can come it it’s own controversies. Specifically the controversy as it relates to various groups trying to get to flung outside government buildings (“this country is of a particular religious persuasion.”) It is also used by missionaries, so does come with the association of trying to also trying to convert people.
Anyway, part of it is being sensitive enough to understand that the message you’re trying to get across may be interpreted by others in a different light than the one you’re trying to get across. Brock’s intent was probably innocuous but there are reasons why IM doesn’t want to allow political or religious messaging. Which is why we typically limit these kinds of things to national flags (that we already we compete under) or the motivational (“I beat cancer”).
