My swim coach recently went to a workshop by Shane Gould. A couple of us were expecting him to come back doing TI-type stuff, but boy, were we in for a shock! The new buzzword is “relaxation”. No more trying to stretch out into hydrodynamically efficient shapes, focussing on the longest stroke length possible, 'cause that ain’t relaxed. Nope, we’re just going to throw the arm into the water almost, but not quite straight (since straight would be hyperextended, so way too much tension), with a relaxed hand, take a curving stroke down to just above the hips, holding the water with the forearm, then swing the arm out to the side and just throw it in a lazy arc till its back in the water. Definitely no kicking out with the hand at the end of the stroke, that doesn’t get you anyway and just feel the tension when you hyperextend. Also forget about the high elbow recovery - after all, has that ever seemed natural?
Have to say, we’re not quite sure what to make of it. I can see there is some logic to cutting out of the stroke all the parts that don’t contribute to forward motion, and with all the shoulder-rolling it produces this new style is supposed to lead to a higher position in the water. Apparently they’re talking about it taking 3% off of 50 m sprints. But still, what happened to a longer body is a faster body? Was the science wrong?
Last night coach seemed to be focusing on two people, one of them me. Now I’m a terrible swimmer, only been doing it a few months after many years of bike racing, and I get more than a little tense in water, especially when trying to stretch out. So maybe this new monkey-motion, shoulder-rolling stroke will help. However, the other person he was concentrating on is the fastest swimmer in the group, and faces unlearning 30 years of streamlined stroke learning for some mad gorilla armswing…
Sorry to butt in but I have a question alone these same lines.I’m also a lousy swimmer and I was told, I forget by who, to reach out as far as I can to make every stoke count.Fewest strokes per lap as possible.So I’ve been swimming with my elbow almost locked and straight forward from my shoulder.The problem with this is I cant even keep up with my wife.She just walks off and leaves me in the pool.So I’ve been doing some reading and I found some stuff by Gale Bernhardt.She says to do drills with a closed fist.Ok so I do and I find that the only way I can move through the water is to bend my elbow and to kind of come across my chest then ending at my hip.Kind of a “C” motion.
So I start using this when I swim and the next time I swim laps with the wife, surprise…surprise I can keep up!
Now my problem.The last couple of nights I’ve been taking a advanced swimmers class at the ‘Y’.The person teaching the class says my stroke is all wrong! She wants me to go back to what I use to do.Should I do what she says to do or do what works?
I think the hole stretch things comes from the fact that generally a longer more streamlined object in the water is faster ie a 20’ (length) and 9’ (width) boat powered by 200hp will reach lets say 20mph if the width of the boat is kept the same and the length increased and the same 200hp power the boat will probably increase in speed by a few mph, in this scenario you will get to a point of demishing returns by increasing length. The key is ratio (length to width). The problem with this comparison I have made is Boats are made of rigid materials without nerve endings and the power of a boat is constant. Now if the power of the boat was responsible for increasing the extra strength needed to support the extra length their would be less reserve for propulsion. But the human body can adapt. It is interesting what your coach has learned. I grew up teaching the red cross way of swimming and learned that most good swimmers are the ones that are comfortable in water.
What is the background of your YMCA instructor? Is she a coach of a competitive swim team or just a Red Cross WSI? The reason I ask is because what the Red Cross teaches as the “correct” way to swim a stroke is not necessarily what is the fastest according to race results in the pool. If you are getting better results with your “new” stroke, I’d stay with it. Look at some books/videos of good competitive swimmers. I’ll bet your new stroke is closer tho them than what your instructor is teaching.
It’s the glide vs. propulsion debate that seems to come up every so often. (There’s a Sheila T. article somewhere on this site that talks about some of the same idea)
The extended glide TI teaches is good for making you get small as you move through the water. But with the extended glide, you also tend to lose propulsion UNLESS you’re also a strong/efficient kicker. The good TI swimmers like Thorpe and Natalie Coughlin tend to have extremely scarily good kicking ability.
So for some tri swimmers with weak/inefficient kicks, it makes sense to reduce the glide and start the pull earlier because you don’t have the kick to keep your speed up during the glide phase and you’ve got a more consistent velocity through the stroke. And I’ve seen some data that suggests short women in general will tend to do better with a higher cadence/higher stroke count than trying to stretch things out too much.
There’s the physics, and then there’s the physiology of figuring how to best adapt your freestyle to your body type. What works for you can easily be totally different than what works for anyone else in your lane. A good coach realizes this, and will help you customize your stroke to your body.
What is the background of your YMCA instructor? Is she a coach of a competitive swim team or just a Red Cross WSI? She started the class by saying she has never been a competitive swimmer but she has had training.She didn’t what training. I did talk to my sons coach of the swim team and she has swam competitivly but she said do what works for you. Dave
“So for some tri swimmers with weak/inefficient kicks, it makes sense to reduce the glide and start the pull earlier because you don’t have the kick to keep your speed up during the glide phase…”
Agreed. The key is to find that turnover rate that optimizes speed for your needs/abilities. Too much glide and you lose momentum and start to sink in the legs/feet. Too fast turnover and you burn out on a long swim. Somewhere in the middle is the optimum. The key is to find your own optimum rate based on the race you want to do rather than blindly following some formula. How do you find the optimum? Practice, stroke counting, practice, more stroke counting, practice…
Or at least the two videos I have of Popov training, he seems to “plop” his whole under forearm and hand on the entry, across the water, in a relaxed manner. Instead of the hand entering the water, in a narrow hole in the water with no splash, at a good vertical angle, which is what is advised, Popov seems to lazily scoot his under fore arm and hand across the water, like a skipping rock. His elbow is barely higher than his hand on entry, in fact, it’s as if he’s just plopping an open hand, even, into the water. He even keeps his fingers open a bit, right before the catch.
Then, after the catch, though, the fingers close, and, it’s power time. The loosey goosey, relaxed party time with the recovery and entry, ends. And his pull looks like it comes right across his stomach, and, when he’s pulling, you can actually see his whole body “lift up and forward” from the pull. It looks like he’s just plopping his hand in, and then lifting his whole body forward.
She is the only swimmer, male or female to hold the world records in every freestyle event from the 100M to the 1500M at the same time. (back in the early 70s)
My old swimming buddy, who is about as poor a swimmer as I am, noticed that I just wasn’t going as fast as I “should” when I was trying the glide technique. I noticed I just sank more because I lost my forward momentum…it was as if I was beginning each stroke from a standstill. I’m exaggerating a little, but, that’s what it felt like. In races, I KNOW I’m stroking much faster than I do in practice, and although he beats me soundly in the pool, I think I have always had a faster race swim split…because I stroke faster in a race.
I’m going to start using the swim “glide thing” as a drill only, and only when I’m tired. I definitely swim faster with a higher turnover rate…and, like pointed out by Jill (I think), that’s common in those people with a poor kick, i.e., Me.
There’s another friend of mine that sums up swimming thusly: he says swimming speed is a lot like the size of your “member”. you have whatever God gave you, and you aren’t going to change it much no matter what you do. It may not be true for swimming speed, but, it makes me laugh, and seems to hold an element of truth.
Hmmm…I guess I teach “monkey motion” swimming, and have for the last 5 years…since I believe the curriculum that Shane Gould is teaching is in collaboration with Milt Nelms, based at least partly on the work of Bill Boomer and others.
Stroke length is important…but I would stress the importance of actual distance covered per stroke, as well as the velocity that distance is covered. So while an elongated catch looks long, not all of the motion is actually productive. Think of swimming a bit more like walking…you’re not pushing/pulling water, but rather you’re trying to anchor your hand into a location, and leveraging your body past that point. To simplify, if you imagine a vector originating from your palm (reaction/counter-reaction…i.e., drag propulsion), then only at 45 degrees from direction of movement (forward) would the vertical (non-productive) and horizontal (productive) forces be equalized. So from arm entry into the water into that approximately 45 degree angle, all you really want to do is make sure you have set a good anchor in the moving water. I actually coach some of my triathletes to swim in choppy waters with a shortened “catch”, as it would increase stability a bit. In addition, it also allows you to more closely draft behind a swimmer without tickling their toes.
As to the arm “recovery”, try this…stand up straight and tall, with your back almost right up against a wall. Rotate your hips so that your tailbone is extended towards your heels, your lower back is inline with the upper back and hips, and your neck is perched atop your spine, right into the base of your skull. Set your arms in an anatomical neutral position, palms facing forward with your thumbs out. Place your pinky fingers atop your butt cheeks, then bring the arms slowly overhead, trying to touch your thumbs together at the top, keeping your hands at the same distance from the wall at all times (same plane of movement). Now try it with your pinky fingers starting alongside your thigh. Then try it again with the back of your palms starting atop the front of your thighs. Which way felt the easiest to bring your hands up and touch your thumbs together?
If you’re a physical therapist…then you already know the answer. Try this exercise, post back, and I will try to give more details tomorrow.
Hi Dave, thanks for the post. I tried out the exercise, and found it was much the easiest starting with my hands on the front of the thighs, so I guess that says something about recovery style.
Overall I think any progress with this ‘new’ style will be slow, but at least I feel I’m starting to get more awareness of when I’m tense or relaxed, and when I’m throwing out my balance and rythym. Still, I would be interested to read anything else you have to say.
Hi Dave, thanks for the post. I tried out the exercise, and found it was much the easiest starting with my hands on the front of the thighs, so I guess that says something about recovery style.
Overall I think any progress with this ‘new’ style will be slow, but at least I feel I’m starting to get more awareness of when I’m tense or relaxed, and when I’m throwing out my balance and rythym. Still, I would be interested to read anything else you have to say.
Duncan
What you’ve discovered is the most natural path for that movement, and what we refer to as “movement within the scapular plane”, meaning that the arm recovery movement is occuring in front of the plane of your scapula(s). Your hand will have more than enough room to clear the surface of the water because you’re not flat on your stomach. Going behind the scapular plane with the elbow up high impedes this natural path a bit, as you discovered. In reality, this won’t really help you go faster, other than reduce some of the muscular contractions during the arm recovery, BUT since it is a far more natural movement, the tendencies to develope shoulder problems is reduced. As you develope spinal awareness and alignment, as well as body tension control…another advantage of the relatively straight arm recovery will make itself apparent. Keep in mind the primary focus should still be on the core movements (the rotation of your hips and shoulders) as the driving force behind your stroke…not on the extremities (arms and legs).
Keep developing your abilities to feel your body’s level of tension/relaxation, as well as balance and rhythm. However, remember (to paraphrase Greg LeMond) that “it doesn’t get easier, you just go faster”. So good stroke mechanics doesn’t necessarily yield faster swimming in of itself, but rather it allows a swimmer to expand upon his/her ultimate potential.
Sounds like you’re getting the hang of it. I hesitate to give too much information primarily because of the limitations of this medium, as well as the fact that you have a coach and it’s not my place to supplement his coaching and teaching. Feel free to ask me any questions…but might be a good idea to ask your coach the question first.
There is some more information on Shane Gould’s website…might want to check it out. And if you ever get a chance to meet Milt Nelms, tell him Dave at Desert Thunder says “hello”.
Thanks for the notes, and I appreciate you not wanting to interfere too much. At the moment my coach is all fired up about this (which has been quite fun to see), so I’m sure I’ll be getting a lot more help from him. Your paraphrase of Lemond struck a chord with me, since as soon as I abandoned a high elbow recovery I was actually able to work hard in the pool, which I hadn’t been able to do before.
And yes, I am in Australia - living in Sydney for a year, which seemed a good time to finally give triathlon a go. Fortunately, I’ve found I can still give most cyclists a hard time if I want to!