Foreclosure Fix

Anyone seen this plan? All I can say is that I need a lot more info. One of the main points is that for borrowers that are still current, but at risk, it will reduce their payment to 31% of their income. What the F does that mean? For how long?
I can’t even begin to state my outrage at this. What if: someone was mortgage broker or RE agent (which means they are now essentially out of work and in most cases unemployable because those are two of the classic ways to get ahead with only a HS education) so during the bubble they of course bought an outrageous house but also managed to put some money away. So right now they are staying current using savings, does this mean that they get to keep and pay a mortgage on their $$$$$$$$$ priced house based on minimal earnings? For how long? Forever?
This is just plain nuts and may finally get me to start writting letters.
My fiscally conservative nature is waging an all out attack and beating the crap out out my socially liberal conscious (social side took my vote for President based mainly on the fact the end of the Bush years saw the Repubs turn a fiscally liberal as the Dems).

http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/18/news/economy/obama_foreclosure/index.htm?postversion=2009021809

it sounds like Obama’s version of rent control… I feel stimulated!!

Isn’t your second sentence ‘all I can say is that I need more info’?
Also the bullet point states that the goal WOULD be…as you said yourself…maybe it’s wise to check the details before starting to rant.

Trust me when I say that I’m pissed off that it looks like those of us who chose to live within our means are going to end up losing out but I’ve been trying to think of it this way:

Why do most people choose to buy versus rent. Realistically you could go out and rent the house of your dreams so it’s not about getting out of a crappy apartment or wanting to paint one of the walls red instead of white. Buying a home is making an investment that you hope will one day pay out after you’ve spent several years paying down some of the principle on the home as well as possibly making capital improvements to the house - and then of course we all hope the house appreciates some since when we bought it. That means that when we go to sell we not only walk away with our downpayment but also with what would hopefully be a healthy chunk of extra cash which, if we then turn it around into another house, we don’t have to pay capital gains taxes on.

Anyone who has their payments lowered to 31% of their annual salary is not having their principle lowered, just their payments. That means that they are essentially just “renting” from the bank because when the time comes to sell they aren’t going to see any significant increase in the cash they put into the home.

However, what it would mean for those of us living next door to this guy is that his house doesn’t go into forclosure which means it won’t affect my home value. That’s the upside I see to us.

Couple of other thoughts based on the CNN article:

  1. I assume (though don’t know for sure) that everyone would still have to pay taxes on the appraised value of their home - that helps keep the city, state, and federal coffers full which is important given how much unemployment money is now going out the door. Far better than just having people walk away from the homes and pay no taxes at all.
  2. The article says that people can refinance but what about people who’s homes will be appraised for less then they bought it - are they going to be expected to cover the shortfall?
  3. Not an economics major but I’m assuming that the idea is that this will somehow “trickle” back through the financial industry and prevent financial institutions who are currently holding these shacky mortgages from collapsing under them.

Like I said in the beginning, I’m really pissed at all involved here - the homeowners, the mortgage brokers, the financial institutions - who saw the past 5+ years as a way to make a quick buck regardless of how irresponsible they’re being. But at some point we need to take some steps to plug up this situation so that, truthfully, when I go to sell my house or you go to sell yours we can see the investment on it we were hoping.

I’m not sure I can buy into your reasoning until the plan is fully laid out. Under your “they won’t be paying down the principle” idea what will happen? Will they will refinance these into 50 year loans? I understand that if someones income has substanially decreased, meaning 31% of little is little, that paying in such a small amount won’t do much to the principle, BUT I don’t see the government or Banks wanting to all of a sudden have 50 or 60 year loans on their books, because that is how long is would take to recoup the original principle at the now drastically reduced payment of 31% of little. What I think may happen (and since I haven’t seen anything to counter it I will remain p/o’d until I see otherwise) is that the government is going to take this person’s previous mortgage of 650k and say well now you can only afford 100k so you pay in on a 100k motgage and we’ll absorb (or maybe in combination with the Banks absorb) the giant loss. So now this person has irresponsibly bought a house they could barely afford when they bought it and can’t afford now refinanced for a price they can now afford. And in the future if say they are a RE broker in 5, 10, 15 years when the market rebounds and they are once again raking in dough (greed knows no bounds I’m sure we will see more mass run ups in house price in our lifetimes) they now have a 100k mortgage that should be 650k.
How about this as a scenario, in order to afford a house in this area we need two incomes to be comfortable. We could survive for a time on one income but that couldn’t last long term. Why don’t I just have my wife quit her job to stay home with the kids, tell the government we are at risk and get my mortgage dropped so that it is only 31% of my income not my wife’s. In a few years once the kids start school my highly employable wife can then go back to work, but now our mortage is a fraction of what it was AND she has gotten the opportunity to stay home with the kids.

If that’s the way this will play out you won’t be the only one pissed off! I have a hard time seeing that one making it through congress though if that’s the plan. Even a democratic congress knows that the majority of their big donors are financially responsible people (making that assumption based on the fact that those without a whole lot of money aren’t typically writing $10K checks to the party) and don’t want to royally piss off those folks. But who the hell knows. I’ve stopped reading the news because it just makes my blood pressure rise every time I do.

If the program is desinged to modify mortgages, like what a lot of lenders are starting to do now, it has been a reduction of the interest rate and a lot of lengthening of terms. I am a Loan Officer (just started in July, great timing) and the Broker I work for has had some success getting a few lenders to modify the terms of the loan. So far, I have yet to see a reduction of principal, that may come from this new plan. The original “Hope for Homeowners” plan that was introduced by the previous administration was an absolute bust, I can’t recall the exact number, but the number 4 comes to mind as the number of people that were actually able to use the program nationally.

I am fiscally very conservative, don’t own a big house or expensive cars (just a couple of bikes), and I get a little peeved when I think that people who made poor decisions are going to get bailed out. Home buyers, Realtors, Mortgage folks, Lenders, Builders, and Investors are all going to get some sort of aide for having no vision of what the future would hold. I am not a bright guy by any stretch, but I remember having a conversation with a Loan Officer back in September of 2005, he was telling me how he was going to retire in 5 years, how many houses he had bought, etc, etc. I asked him if he really thought that the housing market would keep increasing in value, he assured me that there was no way it would ever drop. I argued that the cost of housing was way out of whack for the incomes in our area (Sacramento, Ca) and that just like any other market, there will be an adjustment. I did not know how right I was going to be. Now I wish I wasn’t so right!!

Sorry I drifted, my point is that guys like that are going to be able to get some sort of assistance from the federal government, using funds from taxes that I and other conservative people pay. How is this going to help our economy? Letting people off the hook for bad judgement? I have not always made good decisions in my life, and I have had to pay the price for those decisions. I have learned some very important lessons about money, credit, investments, relationships, and life in general. We are going to make it ok for this kind of thing to happen again, no lessons learned, Daddy and Mommy (President, Congress and Senate) are going to make it all better, it’s not our fault.

Sorry I rambled a little, this subject gets me a little heated.

So far, I have yet to see a reduction of principal, that may come from this new plan.

I might be ok with people getting a reduction in principal… but the difference must be paid back (with interest) when the house sells. This allows these people to hopefully lower payments to something they can afford, while still not giving them a financial bonus for being stupid.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_home_foreclosures

“The plan I’m announcing focuses on rescuing families who have played by the rules and acted responsibly,” Obama said. “It will not rescue the unscrupulous or irresponsible by throwing good taxpayer money after bad loans.”

He issued a warning as well: “All of us must learn to live within our means again.”

He said the plan will not help those who took risky bets by buying homes to sell them, not live in them, or dishonest lenders who distorted facts for naive buyers, or buyers who signed on for loans they knew they could not afford.

“This plan will not save every home,” Obama said.


It will be interesting to see what the details might possibly be to achieve these goals…

According to the CNN article “The plan, however, will not reduce the loan balance.”.

“What I think may happen (and since I haven’t seen anything to counter it I will remain p/o’d until I see otherwise) is that the government is going to take this person’s previous mortgage of 650k and say well now you can only afford 100k so you pay in on a 100k motgage and we’ll absorb (or maybe in combination with the Banks absorb) the giant loss. So now this person has irresponsibly bought a house they could barely afford when they bought it and can’t afford now refinanced for a price they can now afford.”

Actually, that was McCain’s plan to fix the housing industry. I don’t think that’s an accurate description of the current plan though.

I see good and bad in this.

First the bad, seems like there is an awful lot of government “Gimmies” in here. The biggest being the 7% subsidies given to the bank and the home owner.

The article didn’t go into terms all that much on how one qualifies other than to say those with 55% debt load or more would have to go into credit counseling.

Obviously there must be some level of employment history or employment to qualify because the bank isn’t going to take 31% of zero income for a home payment. I wonder how they are going to get around that when the foreclosure is caused by unemployment or underemployment.

The good is that the loan amounts are not being altered as far as I can tell which means both the bank and the lender are still on the hook. This is something I suggested be done before the first bailout, simply adjust the terms of the loan. I’m certain I was told that that can’t be done though :slight_smile:

I have absolutely zero problems with the “Refinancing”, but major problem with the government handing over 7% to help pay off someone else’s house. This also benefits “The rich” more than the “Poor” so I’m guessing there will be some “cut off” for that as well.

If a person “Refinances” and they are making 100K their annual monthly payment could be no more than 2583$. However the government is kicking in 7% so the government pays an additional 583$. One might make the assumption that some of that is going to principal.

Now if a person “Refinances” and they are making 50K, they only get half that :slight_smile:

What I would like to know is who in their right mind would take out a loan that was anywhere NEAR 38% of their income? Good lord if this is down from what they were paying they must of been north of 40% of income for a loan payment, how does that happen?

~Matt

Trust me when I say that I’m pissed off that it looks like those of us who chose to live within our means are going to end up losing out but I’ve been trying to think of it this way:

Why do most people choose to buy versus rent. Realistically you could go out and rent the house of your dreams so it’s not about getting out of a crappy apartment or wanting to paint one of the walls red instead of white. Buying a home is making an investment that you hope will one day pay out after you’ve spent several years paying down some of the principle on the home as well as possibly making capital improvements to the house - and then of course we all hope the house appreciates some since when we bought it. That means that when we go to sell we not only walk away with our downpayment but also with what would hopefully be a healthy chunk of extra cash which, if we then turn it around into another house, we don’t have to pay capital gains taxes on.

Anyone who has their payments lowered to 31% of their annual salary is not having their principle lowered, just their payments. That means that they are essentially just “renting” from the bank because when the time comes to sell they aren’t going to see any significant increase in the cash they put into the home.

However, what it would mean for those of us living next door to this guy is that his house doesn’t go into forclosure which means it won’t affect my home value. That’s the upside I see to us.

Couple of other thoughts based on the CNN article:

  1. I assume (though don’t know for sure) that everyone would still have to pay taxes on the appraised value of their home - that helps keep the city, state, and federal coffers full which is important given how much unemployment money is now going out the door. Far better than just having people walk away from the homes and pay no taxes at all.
  2. The article says that people can refinance but what about people who’s homes will be appraised for less then they bought it - are they going to be expected to cover the shortfall?
  3. Not an economics major but I’m assuming that the idea is that this will somehow “trickle” back through the financial industry and prevent financial institutions who are currently holding these shacky mortgages from collapsing under them.

Like I said in the beginning, I’m really pissed at all involved here - the homeowners, the mortgage brokers, the financial institutions - who saw the past 5+ years as a way to make a quick buck regardless of how irresponsible they’re being. But at some point we need to take some steps to plug up this situation so that, truthfully, when I go to sell my house or you go to sell yours we can see the investment on it we were hoping.

The whole concept on maintaining property values and “keeping people in their homes” is all about trying to hold together a non-sustainable system. A couple of points I see.

They talk about people losing their homes, like they will wander the streets as homeless, this is all fearmongering.

You say it’s like them renting from the bank. Okay let the bank foreclose and then they can actually really rent from the bank or I will rent to them, once I buy their foreclosed home at a good price.

There is no compelling reason to keep home prices high, it does not benefit anyone but people underwater. Okay, the small percentage of people who may not have been underwater and were responsible and need to move in the next 2-3 years may be impacted, but why punish 80% of the population to help the 10% morons and the 10% unlucky who need to move. The only real beneficiary is overspending local and state governments who will not have to lose tax revenue if values drop and they have to reassess and the morons who bought the houses they could not afford.

The home builders don’t want foreclosures because they want to build more homes and don’t want a bunch of homes for sale to compete with their overpriced new construction. The whole problem to begin with was building too many Mcmansions no one could really afford. Homebuilding is going to have to cut way back and unfortunately many jobs will be lost, but there is only a need for so many homes and we have a huge surplus under any circumstances. Propping up prices to keep irresponsible people in their homes is not going to magically create out of thin air a bunch of qualified buyers to purchase the new homes the KB and Toll brothers want to start building again “to get the economy going”.

The automakers are in the same conundrum as the builders in a sense. The US automakers are dependent on people buying new vehicles every 3-4 or getting new leases. At some point for both homes and cars it is unsustainable to continually trade up. I am sensibly driving a used Honda for the past 8 years. How unpatriotic of me not to buy a new American car every 4 years to keep the UAW employed. I live in a pretty modest duplex and I do minor home improvements myself. In the not very long run many automaking jobs and construction jobs will be lost forever. All this stimulus is delaying the inevitable, that it is an unstainable system that was nice will it lasted. It is more pleasant to delude ourselves than face the facts, kind of like what we are doing with Global Warming.

Hell, might as well just go BK, then the judge can order your mortgage written down. I think I am living in some kind of parallel universe.

**Bankruptcy Revamp **
Obama said he will support revamping bankruptcy rules to let judges reduce mortgages on primary residences to fair-market value as long as borrowers pay their debts under a court-ordered plan. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said the administration is in talks with Congress.

This is terrifying stuff…

…and it’s only the first 30 days.

It is like living in a parallel universe.

Here’s what McCain said during the debates, “As president of the United States, I would order the secretary of the Treasury to immediately buy up the bad home loans in America, renegotiate at the new value — diminished value — of their homes, and let people make their payments and stay in their homes,”

I’m trying to figure out what is different or better about Obama’s plan.

Here is a quote from a response I read on CNN this morning…Sorry, don’t mean to make your head explode :slight_smile:

"For example, the loan modification program would be more effective if it were mandatory and included principal reduction. Lowering loan balances is the best way to avoid foreclosures at a time when severe declines in home values have left many with loans worth far more than their houses, some experts said.
“The plan may not be aggressive enough to effectively deal with the scale and magnitude of this epidemic,” said John Taylor, head of the National Community Reinvestment Coalition. “The plan’s voluntary nature may blunt its impact.”

He’s kidding, right? The government should make it mandatory that you should participate? I’ve got to stop reading the news…

What I find striking about the plan is that those of us who don’t even own a home are being asked to subsidize the mortgages of people who do. It seems that government is continuing in the same “humanitarian” role it has played through most of history: taking away from the have-nots to give to the haves, even while pretending to do the opposite.

“He’s kidding, right? The government should make it mandatory that you should participate? I’ve got to stop reading the news…”

it’s voluntary for the lenders/mortgage servicers to lower the payment to 38%/31% – he wants it mandatory for them to lower the payment if the lender requests it. This plan does nothing - the lenders have no reason to lower payments.

I’m trying to figure out what is different or better about Obama’s plan.

Nothing, that’s why I didn’t vote for either :slight_smile:

I think “Revamping” is a good idea but “subsidizing” and or cutting the loan amount is a bad idea. If you want your loan amount cut go bankrupt. If you need to “readjust” to get thru some tough times, refinance. I have no problem with 30, 40, 50 year loans and get it as low of an interest rate as the bank can bear, but “Debt forgiveness” seems rather fruitless and will only make the number of people going the foreclosure route increase.

~Matt