We know for certain that you are right about one thing…IF Lance was not guilty he would have (and I am sure he does have) Lawyers breaking down his doors with sooth saying promises of his next new Bently and tremendous riches. Only a fool would not sign on the lawyers contingency line.
Gu…gu…gu…gull…gullible?
I mean the guy is a scientist so he HAS to be right, right? Scientists, like the ones who have said every year for the past 5 that we are going to get demolished by hurricanes…again? And they can’t even tell me if it’s going to rain tomorrow.
What does predicting hurricans have to do with this? Lance and the other cyclists have a lot to lose if they are caught yet you take their word as truth over a scientist staking his reputation and commenting on the dirtiest sport in the world (possible exception is weightlifting)?
Gu…gu…gu…gull…gullible?
Not every fairy tale has a fairy tale ending…
You must be assuming that she doesn’t go home with Prince Charming in the denim vest.
Bar-hopping Kenny Rodgers is a happy ending!
There IS a third camp, and it is likely much larger than you realize.
Some people realize the problems and enjoy the sport for what it is (seen a negative Giro thread lately?). They tend to be skeptics who know better than to trust just anything at face value, including but not limited to the words of LA, Floyd, scientists, L’Equipe, or otherwise. It’s not that they don’t give a shit (necessarily), it’s that they realize that everything in the topic is so fucked up that no matter where one searches, s/he will not find a complete truth. Even the positivity/negativity of a test result carries no validity anymore.
I don’t trust anyone. I get on my bike, I go out for my runs, I go out for my swims. I come back and look for an update on the Giro, among other things in life. LA is not central to my existence and he’s not central to my motivation and as an athlete. It’s astounding to me that people have such an innate desire to polarize their own perceptions and circumstances. Perhaps it’s an (il)logical convenience, or a means of self-justification. Either way, it’s completely worthless. I know the limits of my own knowledge, and I accept that he is what he is, whatever that may mean. I guess that puts me in camp zero, “I’m comfortable with the uncertainty. The outcome specific to LA doesn’t affect my person either way.” Uh oh, I guess I don’t love cycling.
This thread is worthless. It’s no better than celebrity tabloids.
So, who wants to bet on how much dope Arroyo’s taking to stay in pink?
Gu…gu…gu…gull…gullible?
I mean the guy is a scientist so he HAS to be right, right? Scientists, like the ones who have said every year for the past 5 that we are going to get demolished by hurricanes…again? And they can’t even tell me if it’s going to rain tomorrow.
What does predicting hurricans have to do with this? Lance and the other cyclists have a lot to lose if they are caught yet you take their word as truth over a scientist staking his reputation and commenting on the dirtiest sport in the world (possible exception is weightlifting)?
Gu…gu…gu…gull…gullible?
Because the OP is putting all his trust in a scientist…as if they can’t be wrong?
I’m not saying Lance hasn’t or even ISN’T doping right now, but the reasons people are looking for to try and make it true BEFORE it’s been proven just make me laugh.
If LA ends up being dirty I will not be surprised, not one bit. I will be extremely disappointed, but not surprised. I’m not going to go through 5,000 mental masturbation exercises trying to make it come true. If he is guilty it will come out, but I’m not going to convict him yet.
Interestingly the lab never even tried to defend these tests. That speaks volumes more then what Ashenden says.
seems to me that since these LA/Landis doping posts are not triathlon related, they should go to the lavender room.
Agreed. I’m in that camp too. Cycling is cool to watch and keep up with every now and then, and I love to cheer for whichever Americans are doing well. All this griping about doping just makes me not want to watch it at all, so I like to ignore it for the most part, so I can enjoy the sport without wondering who’s doping and by how much.
He’s a scientist-- this is his entire professional reputation and livelihood on the line.\
Putting aside the actual test and all, can this scientist of yours gurantee the chain of custody of that sample for all those years?? If he cannot, then his statement that he is 100% sure Lance doped is just stupid. It is the old garbage in/ garbage out formula…That is why there are strict rules on chain of custody with these samples. Those samples that were tested were part of an annoymous study and there is no way that you can know the entire chain of custody and whose samples they were exactly. Without all of that you cannot know anything for sure… He may be sure of his tests, but that is not the entire story in a positive drug test…
I’m not defending anyone here, just pointing out that there is a lot more to the story than this guy leads us to believe. It is all about the process, and the process of those tests failed on so many levels that it is pointless to try and use them as any evidence against Lance…
There IS a third camp, and it is likely much larger than you realize.
reply]
x3 There is probably a much larger % of guys doping than anyone not in the sport realizes. But they are all hard working, blue collar guys. In every other respect trustworthy and credible. They are just part of a system much bigger than them that has for the most part given them little alternative but to dope.
As a red blooded, flag waving, American, I fully believe in our US Constitution that everyone is to be considered “innocent until proven guilty”.
All I’m going to say is that everyone has been barking up this “Lance is doping” tree for over TEN years and no one has come up with ANYTHING that can be proven.
I’ve seen “scientists” provide logic for the existence of God, so I therefore I’m not going to believe in any of the shit someone theorizes about Armstrong until there is definitive proof of him doping.
As far as I’m concerned, I will believe it when I see it, but in the meantime, I just think everyone with their conspiracies are just drawing negative attention to the sport.
The only thing good about the Landis statements is that perhaps WADA can alter their screening protocol to see if there is any validity in what Landis is saying.
He’s a scientist-- this is his entire professional reputation and livelihood on the line.\
Putting aside the actual test and all, can this scientist of yours gurantee the chain of custody of that sample for all those years?? If he cannot, then his statement that he is 100% sure Lance doped is just stupid. It is the old garbage in/ garbage out formula…That is why there are strict rules on chain of custody with these samples. Those samples that were tested were part of an annoymous study and there is no way that you can know the entire chain of custody and whose samples they were exactly. Without all of that you cannot know anything for sure… He may be sure of his tests, but that is not the entire story in a positive drug test…
I’m not defending anyone here, just pointing out that there is a lot more to the story than this guy leads us to believe. It is all about the process, and the process of those tests failed on so many levels that it is pointless to try and use them as any evidence against Lance…
Exactly my thoughts. I think there is also the issue of no B sample in those tests. I have little doubt that Lance doped early on, as there are few as driven and egotistical as he, but I won’t take innuendo and uncontrolled tests as a proof.
I take it you didn’t read the article, or think critically about Ashenden’s role on the doping panel or as a researcher for USADA.
Ashenden isn’t a quack expert hired to present their side of the story for a trial. He’s one of the leading doping scientists in the world.
Tom
First off, I’m not trying to make this a pissing match. If Lance is guilty I hope he fries for it…gets stripped of all his accomplishments and is mugged in the wallet…period.
I have known about Mr. Ashenden the Mad at the world Aussie for years, long before anyone in this forum got their panties in a wad over Landis. He has his own agenda. There is a reason he doesn’t do anything with his ‘revelation’, because it can’t stand on it’s own 2 feet. You do realize if his process was held to the standards of what any drug test must adhere to it will fall on it’s face right?
If he can show his testing was completely flawless and can prove it…don’t you think he would?
The Enquirer is rarely successfully sued for libel because their stories are actually true.
We’ll see.
“Third campers” - I’m somewhat in agreement with you. It’s certainly possible to not get too spun up about doping and enjoy the sport for what it is with some uncertainty, even while realizing that it’s very likely that Armstrong and many others doped. I’m paying much more attention to the oil spill than the Landis allegations, myself.
Wiff, Monty, et al: EPO was in the tested samples. Degradation doesn’t cause EPO isoforms to appear when they weren’t there originally, only the possibility for some EPO to break down. As for tampering with the samples, Ashenden discusses the possibility of in his interview, and Andy (the interviewer) foresaw your argument. In that section of the interview, there’s a link to a second discussion with Ashenden re. the likelihood/possibility of tampering:
http://velocitynation.com/content/features/2009/spiking-armstrongs-99-samples
I’m not a haemotologist, and I don’t know what the standards were for maintaining control over the samples, but the most likely explanation for the results is the simplest one-- that Armstrong doped.
This is how I thought it worked. Degradation doesn’t make EPO appear where it wasn’t there before. So what’s the explanation?
The Enquirer is rarely successfully sued for libel because their stories are actually true.
http://www.slate.com/id/2102303
This.
It wasn’t the case in the past, but the Enquirer have actually turned themselves into a fairly reliable source for news over the past couple decades.
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/media/story/2010/02/19/enquirer-pulitzer-eligible.html
Gu…gu…gu…gull…gullible?
I mean the guy is a scientist so he HAS to be right, right? Scientists, like the ones who have said every year for the past 5 that we are going to get demolished by hurricanes…again? And they can’t even tell me if it’s going to rain tomorrow.
What does predicting hurricans have to do with this? Lance and the other cyclists have a lot to lose if they are caught yet you take their word as truth over a scientist staking his reputation and commenting on the dirtiest sport in the world (possible exception is weightlifting)?
Gu…gu…gu…gull…gullible?
Because the OP is putting all his trust in a scientist…as if they can’t be wrong?
I’m not saying Lance hasn’t or even ISN’T doping right now, but the reasons people are looking for to try and make it true BEFORE it’s been proven just make me laugh.
If LA ends up being dirty I will not be surprised, not one bit. I will be extremely disappointed, but not surprised. I’m not going to go through 5,000 mental masturbation exercises trying to make it come true. If he is guilty it will come out, but I’m not going to convict him yet.
These 2 posts imply a really depressing ignorance of the basic methods of science. Did either of you actually read the linked article? He goes through the process in detail. I found it convincing, although I could see how you wouldn’t be convinced if you DIDN’T ACTUALLY READ THE DAMN THING.
If it’s so scientifically sound then why isn’t Lance banned since the outcome is so obvious? I read the article over a year ago and while I certainly understand the process he went through in interpreting the data…I can’t believe if it were this cut and dry that someone wouldn’t have canned LA by now on it.
Ash didn’t conduct the tests, merely interpreted the data. That to me casts instant doubt when the process has been fragmented across different parties. Can he guarantee the samples were not tainted or tampered with? If so then this is probably a slam dunk and Lance is out…until then…