For the global warming skeptics

…Looks like you have a “traitor” in your midst.

WASHINGTON - A prominent physicist and skeptic of global warming spent two years trying to find out if mainstream climate scientists were wrong. In the end, he determined they were right: Temperatures really are rising rapidly.
The study of the world’s surface temperatures by Richard Muller was partially bankrolled by a foundation connected to global warming deniers. He pursued long-held skeptic theories in analyzing the data. He was spurred to action because of “Climategate,” a British scandal involving hacked emails of scientists.
Yet he found that the land is 1.6 degrees Fahrenheit (1 degree Celsius) warmer than in the 1950s. Those numbers from Muller, who works at the University of California, Berkeley, and Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, match those by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and NASA.
He said he went even further back, studying readings from Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. His ultimate finding of a warming world, to be presented at a conference Monday, is no different from what mainstream climate scientists have been saying for decades.
What’s different, and why everyone from opinion columnists to cable TV ‘s satirical"The Daily Show" is paying attention is who is behind the study.
One-quarter of the $600,000 to do the research came from the Charles Koch Foundation, whose founder is a major funder of skeptic groups and the conservative tea party movement. The Koch brothers, Charles and David, run a large privately held company involved in oil and other industries, producing sizable greenhouse gas emissions.
Muller’s research team carefully examined two chief criticisms by skeptics. One is that weather stations are unreliable; the other is that cities, which create heat islands, were skewing the temperature analysis.
“The skeptics raised valid points and everybody should have been a skeptic two years ago,” Muller said in a telephone interview. “And now we have confidence that the temperature rise that had previously been reported had been done without bias.”
Muller said that he came into the study “with a proper skepticism,” something scientists “should always have. I was somewhat bothered by the fact that there was not enough skepticism” before.
There is no reason now to be a skeptic about steadily increasing temperatures, Muller wrote recently in The Wall Street Journal’s editorial pages, a place friendly to climate change skeptics. Muller did not address in his research the cause of global warming. The overwhelming majority of climate scientists say it’s man-made from the burning of fossil fuels such as coal and oil. Nor did his study look at ocean warming, future warming and how much of a threat to mankind climate change might be.
Still, Muller said it makes sense to reduce the carbon dioxide created by fossil fuels.
“Greenhouse gases could have a disastrous impact on the world,” he said. Still, he contends that threat is not as proven as the Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says it is.
On Monday, Muller was taking his results — four separate papers that are not yet published or peer-reviewed, but will be, he says — to a conference in Santa Fe, New Mexico, expected to include many prominent skeptics as well as mainstream scientists.
“Of course he’ll be welcome,” said Petr Chylek of Los Alamos National Lab, a noted skeptic and the conference organizer. “The purpose of our conference is to bring people with different views on climate together, so they can talk and clarify things.”
Shawn Lawrence Otto, author of the book “Fool Me Twice” that criticizes science skeptics, said Muller should expect to be harshly treated by global warming deniers. “Now he’s considered a traitor. For the skeptic community, this isn’t about data or fact. It’s about team sports. He’s been traded to the Indians. He’s playing for the wrong team now.”
And that started on Sunday, when a British newspaper said one of Muller’s co-authors, Georgia Tech climate scientist Judith Curry, accused Muller of another Climategate-like scandal and trying to “hide the decline” of recent global temperatures.
The Associated Press contacted Curry on Sunday afternoon and she said in an email that Muller and colleagues “are not hiding any data or otherwise engaging in any scientifically questionable practice.”
The Muller “results unambiguously show an increase in surface temperature since 1960,” Curry wrote Sunday. She said she disagreed with Muller’s public relations efforts and some public comments from Muller about there no longer being a need for skepticism.
Muller’s study found that skeptics’ concerns about poor weather station quality didn’t skew the results of his analysis because temperature increases rose similarly in reliable and unreliable weather stations. He also found that while there is an urban heat island effect making cities warmer, rural areas, which are more abundant, are warming, too.
Among many climate scientists, the reaction was somewhat of a yawn.
“After lots of work he found exactly what was already known and accepted in the climate community,” said Jerry North, a Texas A&M University atmospheric sciences professor who headed a National Academy of Sciences climate science review in 2006. “I am hoping their study will have a positive impact. But some folks will never change.”
Chris Field, a Carnegie Institution scientist who is chief author of an upcoming intergovernmental climate change report, said Muller’s study “may help the world’s citizens focus less on whether climate change is real and more on smart options for addressing it.”
Some of the most noted scientific skeptics are no longer saying the world isn’t warming. Instead, they question how much of it is man-made, view it as less a threat and argue it’s too expensive to do something about, Otto said.
Skeptical MIT scientist Richard Lindzen said it is a fact and nothing new that global average temperatures have been rising since 1950, as Muller shows. “It’s hard to see how any serious scientist (skeptical, denier or believer — frequently depending on the exact question) will view it otherwise,” he wrote in an email.
In a brief email statement, the Koch Foundation noted that Muller’s team didn’t examine ocean temperature or the cause of warming and said it will continue to fund such research. “The project is ongoing and entering peer review, and we’re proud to support this strong, transparent research,” said foundation spokeswoman Tonya Mullins.

Yah, I saw that in the news. I don’t think there is any further (serious) debate about whether global warming is occurring. IMO, the serious debate is now about what the long-term effects of the warming will be, how much we can change those effects, and what the costs will be. It’s on the last two points, in particular, that I think GW “alarmists” have failed to make their case.

Apparently his team mates and fellow researchers who are co-authors on the four papers that are currently supposed to be in the peer review process have issues with the conclusions he’s drawing in the media. I think we’ll have to wait and see how this plays out before declaring victory.

Apparently his team mates and fellow researchers who are co-authors on the four papers that are currently supposed to be in the peer review process have issues with the conclusions he’s drawing in the media. I think we’ll have to wait and see how this plays out before declaring victory.

like “there was good reason to be skeptic when only 7 different efforts had measured the same global warming trend, but now that IVE done it too, there is no good reason”?

haha

Mueller has chutzpah

at least he didn’t lie though

I was sent THIS article earlier.

Same study, different perspective with a denier denying the denier…or something like that.

~Matt

of course BEFORE his results came out with the inevitable result, the skeptics were all eagerly anticipating him to prove that climate scienctists were incompetent or scam artists.

when in fact he proved that they knew what they were talking about. no shit.

so now the goalposts are shifted of course. never mind the thousands of people accused of fraud, the intentionally wasteful FOIA requests, nearly driving a guy to suicide, the daily blogs and press releases calling the data bad, the data is a lie, the data intentionally adjusted wrong

no, no

now its “well we don’t know if humans have caused it”

guys, yes we do, and if you want your pet physicist to redo that work too, go ahead. I look forward to the next forbes press release – “Well of COURSE we are causing it but there is nothing we can do about it”

=)

I was sent THIS article earlier.

Same study, different perspective with a denier denying the denier…or something like that.

~Matt

so now the goalposts are shifted of course.

This whole thing has been morphed into nothing more than another political battle. Both sides have too much invested to admit the other side is right or even has a point. Instead they will all fight to the death and nothing will get done.

I can only hope there’s enough ingenuity left in this country for some HS kid to be working in his garage making a viable electric car or something :slight_smile:

~Matt

I was sent THIS article earlier.

Same study, different perspective with a denier denying the denier…or something like that.

~Matt

Muller’s paper does nothing to dispel skeptical objections to the theory that humans are causing a global warming crisis

Well, no s***. Talk about a straw man argument.

of course BEFORE his results came out with the inevitable result, the skeptics were all eagerly anticipating him to prove that climate scienctists were incompetent or scam artists.

when in fact he proved that they knew what they were talking about. no shit.

so now the goalposts are shifted of course. never mind the thousands of people accused of fraud, the intentionally wasteful FOIA requests, nearly driving a guy to suicide, the daily blogs and press releases calling the data bad, the data is a lie, the data intentionally adjusted wrong

no, no

now its “well we don’t know if humans have caused it”

guys, yes we do, and if you want your pet physicist to redo that work too, go ahead. I look forward to the next forbes press release – “Well of COURSE we are causing it but there is nothing we can do about it”

Followed by “well, of course we could do THAT, but it’d cost way too much and cost us jobs. And the Chinese and the Indians aren’t doing it, so our jobs would just go there.”

Not sure what would follow that.

of course BEFORE his results came out with the inevitable result, the skeptics were all eagerly anticipating him to prove that climate scienctists were incompetent or scam artists.

when in fact he proved that they knew what they were talking about. no shit.

so now the goalposts are shifted of course. never mind the thousands of people accused of fraud, the intentionally wasteful FOIA requests, nearly driving a guy to suicide, the daily blogs and press releases calling the data bad, the data is a lie, the data intentionally adjusted wrong

no, no

now its “well we don’t know if humans have caused it”

guys, yes we do, and if you want your pet physicist to redo that work too, go ahead. I look forward to the next forbes press release – “Well of COURSE we are causing it but there is nothing we can do about it”

=)

I was sent THIS article earlier.

Same study, different perspective with a denier denying the denier…or something like that.

~Matt

yeah I hear ya…“maybe if we had started back then we could have had an impact but now…now is just too late”

Both sides have too much invested to admit the other side is right or even has a point.

don’t go trying to characterize this as being about two sides that aren’t seeing eye to eye. that isn’t what it is. it is about one side that has been doing actual work in the field for 40 years and figured a few things out (globe is warming, about this much, due mostly to co2 emissions)

and another side that is so paranoid about some of the policy decision stemming from these facts, that they are willing to LIE to confuse the situation and prevent them.

annnd, a third side that are just crazy hippies that want to leverage the science for crazy (or…is it?) environmental and social movements.

these are not honest disagreements or misunderstandings here, lol

I thought we already had a thread about this, about a week or so ago.

Yes, here it is:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3595027;search_string=koch;#3595027

don’t go trying to characterize this as being about two sides that aren’t seeing eye to eye. that isn’t what it is. it is about one side that has been doing actual work in the field for 40 years and figured a few things out (globe is warming, about this much, due mostly to co2 emissions)

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but the idea of “Two sides” and being invested in ones opinion has ZERO,zip, nada to do with facts and or actually being right.

these are not honest disagreements or misunderstandings here, lol

So you’re saying this is different than politics how? Do you believe that one side REALLY believes the other side wants children to starve or wants to kill babies?

The amount of data, work or fact to back ones positions doesn’t really come into play these days.

~Matt

So you’re saying this is different than politics how?

What do you mean by this? The people who put together the surface temp data, the people at the NOAA and GISS and HadCru who did that, were doing science, not politics.

The people who are terrified of the policy decisions stemming from that data are spreading FUD

so now the goalposts are shifted of course.

This whole thing has been morphed into nothing more than another political battle. Both sides have too much invested to admit the other side is right or even has a point. Instead they will all fight to the death and nothing will get done.

I can only hope there’s enough ingenuity left in this country for some HS kid to be working in his garage making a viable electric car or something :slight_smile:

~Matt

What does it take to make batteries and what are the issues with disposing used batteries?

Where does most electricity come from?

Isn’t Coal one of the things that creates Global Warming or Climate Change or whatever we are suppose to call it?

I say lets start by eliminating tax credits for kids/dependents and quit providing welfare for kids, it’s all in the name of saving our planet for gods sake. Maybe China is really being more moral and responsible with their child policies after all. :wink:

Isn’t Coal one of the things that creates Global Warming or Climate Change or whatever we are suppose to call it?

yes it is, which is why if we want to have an industrial future without burning fossil fuels you will need vehicles that can be powered by something other than internal combustion.

an electric car is one such way to do that. you can then power the car with super fusion, super wind power, super solar power, or even super natural gas with the co2 captured by a field of corn or something.

because we need more corn
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YldhY2H2N-U/TU7XOItv_4I/AAAAAAAAA74/OJmHvKobIec/s1600/fat-american.jpg

how dare anyone threaten our industrial output! people could starve! :wink:

Isn’t Coal one of the things that creates Global Warming or Climate Change or whatever we are suppose to call it?

yes it is, which is why if we want to have an industrial future without burning fossil fuels you will need vehicles that can be powered by something other than internal combustion.

an electric car is one such way to do that. you can then power the car with super fusion, super wind power, super solar power, or even super natural gas with the co2 captured by a field of corn or something.

because we need more corn
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YldhY2H2N-U/TU7XOItv_4I/AAAAAAAAA74/OJmHvKobIec/s1600/fat-american.jpg

how dare anyone threaten our industrial output! people could starve! :wink:

Which was my point about our current electric cars, some of which demand more fossil fuels burnt per mile than internal combustion engine vehicles. If Electricity is the answer shouldn’t we work on the fuel before we work on the car? Does it make sense to build electric cars that add to our already stressed electrical grid and cause a higher demand for coal?

ETA I think maybe I missed the pink font, I hope :wink:

some of which demand more fossil fuels burnt per mile than internal combustion engine vehicles.

which ones do and how did you do that math, or were did you see it?

sources I see seem to indicate you get more mile for your fossil fuel with an electric vehicle

some of which demand more fossil fuels burnt per mile than internal combustion engine vehicles.

which ones do and how did you do that math?

I read in a article that the one’s being built in EU I think it was that got a $500 million or billion loan guarantee from the fed got worse mileage from a carbon/co2 standpoint than an SUV getting 19 mpg burning gasoline. And I think they cost like $100,000.

the fisker karma?
well that is a huge electric spotrs/luxury barge

comparable car would be something like a maserati which gets worse than 19mpg =)