For s*** and giggles, how good of a runner/duathlete could i become?

Triathlon Forum
1

As a bike racer who’s a few points away from a cat-2 upgrade, I’ve come to the slow realization that getting to cat-1 may require drastically different training regimen. This past year, i probably averaged 8-9 hrs/week during “on” weeks, 6-7 hrs/week during recovery and tapers, and probably averaged 7-8 hours overall, with a few weeks topping out at over 10 hours. Though I’m probably doing 60% the hours other cat-3s are doing, I’ve been having success both in crits and road races. Going to the cat-2 level, i would think i would need to drastically increase the hours (perhaps to 12hr/week avg), with quite a few 80 mile rides in order to prepare myself for those ultra long road races. Frankly, i’m not sure i have the time for that. Add to that the fact i’m getting older and am less inclined to take risks, getting my cat-1 license may very well be a pipe dream.

However, as I have been getting better on my TT bike and am reasonably aero (averaged 28.5 mph on an 8 mile long out-and-back course on 310 W), i think i could at least remain competitive in TTs, perhaps even against cat 1s and 2s. This is probably where i’ll be headed, but I’m also contemplating taking up running again after a 7-year hiatus, both as a single event, per se, and as part of duathlons. My question is a rough ball-park estimate of how good i may become should I dedicate more time to improve my running.

Relevant physiological stats and PB as follows:

Age: 31
Height: 174cm
Mass: 68 kg (71 kg right now). Could probably stand to shed another 2 kilos from 68 kg, but that would be miserable.
20’ power: 335 (from May when not rested)
60’ power: estimated to be around 320 late season.
Strength: breakaways. All of my upgrade points have come from breaks, and i’ve always joked that i should really be doing triathlons as anyone with an iota of fast twitch muscles would beat me in a sprint.

Back when i ran 7 years ago, the following were my PBs

Mile: 5:40-5:45, on a track
2-mile: 12:40, on a track
5k: 19:30-20:00, on a track.
Marathon: 3:40-3:41, in hilly San Francisco.

I would think that i wouldn’t be that atrocious when it comes to biomechanical efficiency, but i’m not sure how my current aerobic fitness would translate. If we take RChung’s rule of thumb of 1 w/kg ~1 m/s, it would suggest that i would be able to finish a 10k in 38 min. While that doesn’t sound particularly fast to some, i’d be thrilled if i could string together six miles 6min/mile. Any comments, suggestions welcomed, especially from those who might have taken a stab at something similar.

2

competitive in local races, not the man but the guy who wins when the man doesn’t show up.

3

You would be competitive on the bike, for sure.

4

You are not a good runner and will probably not be one ever, but you are a pretty good cyclist right now. Why not stick to that? Your 20 minute power and 60 minute power, at your weight, are at the high end of good for a not even cat 2. Is your anaerobic/neuromuscular power fairly abysmal? What type of power meter? You should be getting pretty good results on those numbers.

5

Idk those run times aren’t very impressive but 335 is a lot of watts for 20mins. Dude fuck counting hours i think I got faster from 4hrs/wk of intervals/tempos than 25 of 15% intensity 85% easy

6

If you fully committed to running, you could probably be darn good (I was a biker before I was a runner, though made the transition at age 20). Things you’d probably need to do:

  1. Stop biking/lifting. My guess is you have a strong biker’s build, which will be more prone to injury and generally slower than letting your body adapt to running. (I went from 200 pounds as a football player to 165 as a biker to 135 as a runner)

  2. Run frequently, and easily, with lots of strides to work on running economy after a while

  3. Build volume over the course of 2 years to 70 miles per week, which is really the minimum for a man to start seeing what their potential is like

If you did those three things, I think you could be a 15-16 min 5k guy. The only thing that gives me pause on that are your track times from before. I’m just assuming you were doing low mileage and didn’t have a runner’s body type.

7

I’m with Dave. I was a road cyclist many, many years ago, then a mountain biker, then took up triathlon several years ago having done no running previously. I’m a similar height but low 60kg/135lbs. We have a relatively similar w/kg and I’ve got my run times down to high 16 for 5km leg of sprint duathlon and mid 1:20’s for HIM run, and that’s off no more than 55 mpw (though I did do a 4 month run focus averaging 45 mpw). I would imagine that’s at least the ball park you should be aiming for.

ETA - I was nearly 10 years older than you when I started running/swimming, so I’d say you probably have more headroom than I did.

8

You’re a better/stronger cyclist than I am, but my background is in running…
We’re not too different in height and weight (64kg, 177cm), but while my 20 min power is a measly ~260W (on a good day) I can still run relatively quickly on limited run training. My recent run times on limited run training are a fair bit faster than your PBs, and I’ve had limited success as a duathlete.

Some cyclists I know have monster power, but can’t run well. Others are just naturals and their run performance ties up well with their on-the-bike power. I think the real question is, how much running were you doing when you set those PBs? And how many years of running had you done at that point? If running was your focus, and you followed a structured plan that was primarily running… well, you’ll probably continue to be more competitive as a cyclist than as a duathlete. If those PBs were set with a run training plan that complemented a cycling plan (or other confounding factor) then you’ve plenty of room to improve. Especially if you didn’t have a few years of running under the belt already.

Having said that, I race bikes even though I would be more competitive as a runner. I like racing bikes more than I like running these days. I’ve just managed to get my upgrade points for cat 3 and I’m wondering whether to apply for my upgrade now, or stick out the spring races in cat 4 and be a bigger fish for a few more races. My guess is that you’ll still be most competitive as a cyclist, but if you want to focus on running I don’t see why you wouldn’t be a solid duathlete. You’d need to dominate the bike leg though - there are some crazy fast runners doing duathlon.

9

You are not a good runner and will probably not be one ever, but you are a pretty good cyclist right now. Why not stick to that? Your 20 minute power and 60 minute power, at your weight, are at the high end of good for a not even cat 2. Is your anaerobic/neuromuscular power fairly abysmal? What type of power meter? You should be getting pretty good results on those numbers.

at the top end, the field is quite stacked, and with my low anaerobic/neuromuscular power, 320W for 60 min is a “that’s cute” sort of #. Due to a horrific injury back when i was cat-5, i have given up on field sprints, which means that i’ll have to upgrade by going OTF. The main issue is that i’ll have to fight for scraps amongst cat-1s as cat-2 standalone races are rare, which makes upgrading a lot more difficult. Instead of increasing training volume for the next 4-5 years for the hope of getting to cat-1, I think the more prudent thing would be to get good enough on the TT bike to be semi-competitive for Master Nats (which probably won’t require much more than 8hr/week) and spend a bit more time running. The other thing is even if i get to cat-1, sooner or later i’ll have to figure out what i want to do as a pivoting move. Add to that the risk of injury, bike racing all the sudden doesn’t seem as fun…

If you fully committed to running, you could probably be darn good (I was a biker before I was a runner, though made the transition at age 20). Things you’d probably need to do:

  1. Stop biking/lifting. My guess is you have a strong biker’s build, which will be more prone to injury and generally slower than letting your body adapt to running. (I went from 200 pounds as a football player to 165 as a biker to 135 as a runner)

good point. i’d think the change needed to be less injury prone would take a long time

  1. Run frequently, and easily, with lots of strides to work on running economy after a while

  2. Build volume over the course of 2 years to 70 miles per week, which is really the minimum for a man to start seeing what their potential is like

If you did those three things, I think you could be a 15-16 min 5k guy.** The only thing that gives me pause on that are your track times from before. I’m just assuming you were doing low mileage and didn’t have a runner’s body type.**

I"m far from having runner’s body. I joke around with people saying that i’m “zaftig.” I also weighed a good 5-6 kilo more back then than i do now, and i’d think my aerobic capacity weren’t be as high either. Also I didn’t know how to train back then and made the characteristic beginner’s mistake of always trying to run too fast and experienced quite a few instances of over-reaching and injuries. Like a brash young person on whom wisdom is wasted, i just went back to the same stupid thing after i’d recover.

I have no expectation of going below 18 for 5k as i don’t expect to give up cycling (at least for time trials), and i don’t think i’ll ever be able to build up to 70 miles. But if i could squeeze in 2-3 runs a week, that may be a happy compromise.

10

I’m with Dave. I was a road cyclist many, many years ago, then a mountain biker, then took up triathlon several years ago having done no running previously. I’m a similar height but low 60kg/135lbs. We have a relatively similar w/kg and I’ve got my run times down to high 16 for 5km leg of sprint duathlon and mid 1:20’s for HIM run, and that’s off no more than 55 mpw (though I did do a 4 month run focus averaging 45 mpw). I would imagine that’s at least the ball park you should be aiming for.

ETA - I was nearly 10 years older than you when I started running/swimming, so I’d say you probably have more headroom than I did.
very impressive work! if i could do 1:25 stand-alone somewhere down the road, i’d be ecstatic. heck, i’d be ecstatic with a 1:30.

out of curiosity, how long did it take you to get to the point where you were fully tapping into your aerobic engine as opposed to being limited by muscle strength?

You’re a better/stronger cyclist than I am, but my background is in running…
We’re not too different in height and weight (64kg, 177cm), but while my 20 min power is a measly ~260W (on a good day) I can still run relatively quickly on limited run training. My recent run times on limited run training are a fair bit faster than your PBs, and I’ve had limited success as a duathlete.

Some cyclists I know have monster power, but can’t run well. Others are just naturals and their run performance ties up well with their on-the-bike power. I think the real question is, how much running were you doing when you set those PBs? And how many years of running had you done at that point? If running was your focus, and you followed a structured plan that was primarily running… well, you’ll probably continue to be more competitive as a cyclist than as a duathlete. If those PBs were set with a run training plan that complemented a cycling plan (or other confounding factor) then you’ve plenty of room to improve. Especially if you didn’t have a few years of running under the belt already.

perhaps the silver lining with my previous running experience was that i was training like an idiot.

Having said that, I race bikes even though I would be more competitive as a runner. I like racing bikes more than I like running these days. I’ve just managed to get my upgrade points for cat 3 and I’m wondering whether to apply for my upgrade now, or stick out the spring races in cat 4 and be a bigger fish for a few more races.

Props for trying out bike racing. If you have yet to win a race in your cat-4 campaign, i’d say get stronger and dominate in the spring before upgrading. If you had won races , it still wouldn’t hurt to work on different aspects of race craft before moving on. If your points came from sprinting, go on breaks, and vice versa. As long as the course is generally safe, work on positioning, cornering, ability to maneuver within a pack (without seeing wind), and getting a better intuition at how the race may develop. These are all important to becoming more efficient and gets harder to learn when moving up the categories. Sadly, one thing i know i absolutely stink at is downhill corners, and i get exposed in crits with those types of turns. One other thing is that you could see a 10% or more bump in power once you stop running.

If you are winning your races from breaks, i’d say you’d be more than fine in cat-3.

My guess is that you’ll still be most competitive as a cyclist, but if you want to focus on running I don’t see why you wouldn’t be a solid duathlete. You’d need to dominate the bike leg though - there are some crazy fast runners doing duathlon.
oh for sure. I’m gonna need to find the pancake flat duathlons in order to maximize the benefit derived from being aero. I’m amazed by dudes running 17min 5k’s after doing 27mph on the bike. Yeah, those dudes may as well be called MC Hammers as i won’t be getting close to touching those efforts.

11

To throw my anecdotal hat into the ring (and because I go back and forth on trying a duathlon/triathlon myself), here’s my cycling to run progression before reverting back to cycling:

I stopped riding after being a mediocre Cat 1 with worse long-duration power numbers than yours (though my short duration numbers were quite high and where my cycling success came from).

A couple of years later I started running. I did a 10k after only running 5 times ever and did 48 mins and then with a month of running I ran a low 20 5k and 42 min 10k. After a year building up to 40ish mpw I was mid 18s/38s. After another year of bumping up to 70 mpw and dropping five kgs (from 75 to 70) I ran a sub 17 5k and mid 35 10k. And then I was injured and had to stop running completely so I starting riding again and was back to podiuming p/1/2 races after 6 months of training.

Now I’m trying to pick up a little running again and despite the initial soreness everywhere, it seems to be coming back fairly well all things considering.

So, in your shoes, if you’re serious about the duathlon, I’d probably do a big run focus over the winter where doing longer rides is a pita anyway and and work on getting that to sub 20 again and then sub 19 while simply maintaining on the bike.

12

I’ve just managed to get my upgrade points for cat 3 and I’m wondering whether to apply for my upgrade now, or stick out the spring races in cat 4 and be a bigger fish for a few more races.

I’m always an advocate for racing the highest category you can. There’s no such thing as a “big fish” in the cat 4s. Because…it’s the 4s… ;D.

I’d upgrade now. Especially if there’s still time to get in a few races as a 3 to give you a better perspective of what it’s going to take going into the winter.

13

I’ve just managed to get my upgrade points for cat 3 and I’m wondering whether to apply for my upgrade now, or stick out the spring races in cat 4 and be a bigger fish for a few more races.

I’m always an advocate for racing the highest category you can. There’s no such thing as a “big fish” in the cat 4s. Because…it’s the 4s… ;D.

I’d upgrade now. Especially if there’s still time to get in a few races as a 3 to give you a better perspective of what it’s going to take going into the winter.

wait a second, do you to happen to be a cat-1 from the southeast? In particular, someone on bikeforums? Your user name looks familiar.

in any case, that’s quite impressive what you accomplished. I think one thing with a 40 mpw run focus is simply the boredom that may arise. That was half whole reason why i swapped to cycling as there’s only so much you can do when going around Central Park in circles. On the bike, however, the speed makes it more bearable.

14

I’ve just managed to get my upgrade points for cat 3 and I’m wondering whether to apply for my upgrade now, or stick out the spring races in cat 4 and be a bigger fish for a few more races.

I’m always an advocate for racing the highest category you can. There’s no such thing as a “big fish” in the cat 4s. Because…it’s the 4s… ;D.

I’d upgrade now. Especially if there’s still time to get in a few races as a 3 to give you a better perspective of what it’s going to take going into the winter.

I totally understand, but race season is over and most of my team are 4s. So I’d basically be back to racing solo in 3s, because I’m not planning on moving teams next season.
Also, it’s New Mexico, so most races have a combined 1/2/3 field and there’s no such thing as a big fish in cat 3 either! I ride regularly with some 2s and 3s so pretty sure I’m not going to be off the back, but the cat 1 riders will be up the road.

I’m not looking to sandbag (we’ve got enough of those guys making it hard to get upgrade points in the 4s already), but upgrading means racing with 1s and 2s… So a less ego-destroying start to next season might be nice!

/Thread derailing

15

perhaps the silver lining with my previous running experience was that i was training like an idiot.

Then you’re probably going to be one of those “good at everything” types that the rest of us hate :wink:

Props for trying out bike racing. If you have yet to win a race in your cat-4 campaign, i’d say get stronger and dominate in the spring before upgrading. If you had won races , it still wouldn’t hurt to work on different aspects of race craft before moving on. One other thing is that you could see a 10% or more bump in power once you stop running.

If you are winning your races from breaks, i’d say you’d be more than fine in cat-3.

Good advice for sure. I’ve never won a bike race, but I’ve had the other steps of the podium a few times. Mostly from breaks, or sprints from a very reduced bunch. And hill climbs, but that hardly counts. My only podiums in crits have come from breaks. I’ve definitely improved my descending/cornering this season, though the only race round here that really needs those skills is Gila.

I’m pretty sure I won’t see that big a bump in power though… I’ve cut my running back during bike season the last couple of years and have only seen very modest gains. Running seems to work for me as a cross training activity as long as I keep it short and easy. Increasing the volume impacts my recovery from bike training, but it’s a very indirect effect on my bike power.

That can cut both ways I’m sure; increasing my running doesn’t seem to lose me that much power either (some, but not 10â„…). Who knows, maybe you won’t lose much when you ramp up the running…

16

In my experience/estimation, you’d get your a** kicked. During my brief (~1.5 y) foray into duathlons, I was both a better cyclist (same weight, higher FTP) and better runner (open 5 km mid-17s), but could only challenge for the win in local or age-group competitions. I also found (as I’m sure you would, specificity and all) that the more I tried to improve my weakness, i.e., running, the more I gave up on the bike, such that the net-net was that I wasn’t any faster overall.

17

Fwiw, you can be a competitive cat 1 on 9-12 hours a week consistently March through August. Your w/kg is close to where it needs to be, so don’t discount continuing to progress in bike racing.

At the same time I hope you can become a decent runner because I have similar feelings about transitioning from biking to running.

18

He stated his 60 minute power. How do you know his FTP?

19

Firstly take most of the Tri “know it all” BS lightly…if you’ve got an engine you’ve got an engine.

Cycling or running

It’s all about the engine…and the time you are willing devote to building that engine.

20

I see what you did there!!!