Flood advice - attention plumbers, contractors, home insurance agents, adjustors, lawyers

The Coffee Shop
1

Dear LR experts (and those who slept at the Holiday Inn last night), I call upon your collective wisdom.

We had a licensed plumber replace our old galvanized water supply with PEX a few years ago after we had a pinhole leak destroy our kitchen ceiling (1956 ranch style home). We did not file an insurance claim at that time, we were going to remodel the kitchen anyways.

Yesterday while preparing dinner for the kids, I noticed water coming up under the laminate floor next to the kitchen (kitchen has tile). The water was coming from the main wet wall between the (newly remodeled) kitchen and the (newly remodeled) bathroom. It stopped after I immediately turned off the main water supply, but it had saturated the underlayment of about 50 sqft of laminate flooring in the hallway which I had to pull up (and will have about 100 - 150 sqft of laminate floor to replace) together with baseboards etc. After drilling holes in the back of my (recently remodeled) kitchen cabinets, I found the source of the flood was one of the old disconnected galvanized water pipe ends running down from the attic behind the bathroom sink.

How does water get into the old disconnected galvanized lines? It took me and my husband 3 hours to figure out. We discovered a copper line that connects the drain of the water heater to the old galvanized pipes in the attic (so the water heater has 3 water lines connecting to it: cold in from PEX, hot out to PEX, and the additional one to the old galvanized lines)

So here are my questions:

  1. who do I call first? (psychiatrist, marriage counselor, divorce lawyer, insurance lawyer, home insurance company, the plumber who installed the PEX, or the ROC)

  2. would a competent plumber have noticed there was still a water line connecting back to the old system, and should they have done something about it? (it is very obvious in the attic, its easily visible, is right next to many of the PEX lines and connectors, and runs the entire length of the attic, its NOT hard to miss. I’d expect someone who spends 4 days in the attic like the plumbers did, would notice it)

Thanks, and please send some holiday cheers this way, coz we could use some.

2

Labor and materials to replace and repair the floor will cost less than our deductible for the insurance, so that answers that question.

Do I have any chance of getting any money out of the plumber? This is clearly something that they should have dealt with at the time of installation, and was a ticking time bomb. Of course, the plumber will state that they are not the ones who installed the copper pipe from the water heater that lead to the leak, but shouldn’t they have made sure that all connections to the old water circuits were capped off/terminated before turning the water on in the new lines?

3

I’m confused on the description of what you have. You have pex into the water heater and pex out of the water heater. Where do the copper and galvanized lines come into play? You mention that they are tied into the water heater drain, but if that’s true, I can’t see why it would be in your attic, unless the water heater is up there too. Also, if it is a drain, why did it start draining? Water heaters shouldn’t drain unless someone opens the drain valve.

Also, if this setup has been been fine for several years and just started leaking now, I don’t see how you’re going to get anything from the plumber.

4

there are 3 water lines on the water heater. 1 PEX cold water in. 1 PEX hot water out. These two connect at the top.

There is a 3rd copper line attached between two faucets/valves on the bottom.
http://i58.tinypic.com/11rya2b.jpg

I have no idea how long the blue lever had been on the “open” setting, why it was like that, or what. We never mess with the water heater, its outside and we never maintain it or anything (bad, I know).

This copper line is tied into the old galvanized lines that have theoretically been disconnected when the PEX was installed. Except this copper line was feeding water into the galvanized, which then was dumping the water into the wall out its open end (where it had been cut off to attach the PEX to the angle stops under the sink). When I turned on the main water to the house, the galvanized started dumping water into the wall. After turning the blue lever to off, and draining the water out using the green faucet, and then turning the main water on, there was no more water out of the galvanized. (I also went up in the attic and saw where this 3rd water heater copper line actually feeds into the old galvanized pipes, which were just left in situ in the attic)

So would a decent plumber not have recognized this was going to be a problem?

5

Of course, the plumber will state that they are not the ones who installed the copper pipe from the water heater that lead to the leak, but shouldn’t they have made sure that all connections to the old water circuits were capped off/terminated before turning the water on in the new lines?

This is exactly my point. And its not like the connection was in some hidden place. Its right next to the new PEX lines in the attic, where the plumbers spent 4 days working.

6

I can’t think why they did that. The line coming out the bottom is generally to drain the water from the tank. You may need to this periodically to flush sediment out of the tank which will extend its life. You would not feed hot water lines in the house from this bottom line. It should just be a drain and it should go somewhere where it will not cause an issue.

Perhaps there were 3 galvanized line in the wall in the past? i.e cold water in, hot water out, and this drain line to some safe location. perhaps the plumber just cut all 3 out not realizing what the third one was for? That would sound like a mistake if that was the case.

BTW you should also have a pressure relieve valve and line somewhere higher on the tank. Does that line tie into this line? The purpose of that line is to release pressure should the thermostat fail and the water heats to boiling where it might explode. The relief valve releases pressure/boiling hot water before that happens.

I can’t understand why it would start leaking all of a sudden unless someone opened the blue valve. is this outside? maybe some kid thought he was having some fun?

7

There’s definitely something weird with that setup. The blue handled ball valve is the drain for the water heater. Typically this is kept in the closed position and only opened when the water heater needs to be drained. For some reason, there appears to be a second drain line branched off that. If you look closely at the branched line the brass fitting appears to be another ball valve, but with the handle removed or concealed on the opposite side of what we’re seeing in that picture. If that’s not a valve, there has to be another valve somewhere, or that drain line is/was capped somewhere. Without a valve somewhere, or without a cap on that line somewhere, the water heater would have been draining constantly, from the moment it was first filled. I suspect that that there was a cap in the line that failed, or the valve in the picture on the branched line failed.

Your water heater must be at a higher elevation than your attic. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be seeing water from the drain coming down into a wall and into your kitchen. I’m going to assume your water heater is also located where it would be difficult to drain into a bucket, or difficult to connect a garden hose for draining. That would explain why they plumbed a drain line to another location. If that drain line no longer terminates where it originally did, then the plumber should have removed that branch line. Or maybe they capped it in the wall somewhere and that cap failed.

As I said, if you had the plumbing replaced years ago and it just started leaking now, it was obviously fine for a while. Without knowing what existed before you had the plumbing work done, where that line drained to, and what the plumber actually did, I can only guess why it was done the way it was. If my assumptions are correct, and I had done this work, I would have done things differently.

But, as I said before, if it was fine for several years and only recently started leaking, I think you’re stuck with fixing this and moving on.

8

Whoever installed this should be beaten with their pipe wrench. I’m guessing it was a half assed way to feed hot water to an addition. This is totally not normal and I can see how your pumbers didn’t notice it. Have you lost hot water service on any faucets after you closed the blue shutoff? (check washing machine)

9

BTW you should also have a pressure relieve valve and line somewhere higher on the tank. Does that line tie into this line? The purpose of that line is to release pressure should the thermostat fail and the water heats to boiling where it might explode. The relief valve releases pressure/boiling hot water before that happens.

I can’t understand why it would start leaking all of a sudden unless someone opened the blue valve. is this outside? maybe some kid thought he was having some fun?

I don’t see a pressure relief valve. There is a 3 foot long open ended black hose (like a garden hose) coming out the top of it, that just hangs, that hose drips sometimes, so that may be it?

The water heater is outside, in my back yard. Only my kids would have access to it. The blue handle was hidden behind a sheet metal cover that I have taken off to get a look.

10

All faucets, including washer, have hot water. This third water line out of the water heater goes straight without branching into the galvanized line in the attic. It seems its purpose might have been to get hot water to that end of the house faster (its where the master bathroom is…the water heater is on the other end of the house)

11

There’s definitely something weird with that setup. The blue handled ball valve is the drain for the water heater. Typically this is kept in the closed position and only opened when the water heater needs to be drained. For some reason, there appears to be a second drain line branched off that. If you look closely at the branched line the brass fitting appears to be another ball valve, but with the handle removed or concealed on the opposite side of what we’re seeing in that picture. If that’s not a valve, there has to be another valve somewhere, or that drain line is/was capped somewhere. Without a valve somewhere, or without a cap on that line somewhere, the water heater would have been draining constantly, from the moment it was first filled. I suspect that that there was a cap in the line that failed, or the valve in the picture on the branched line failed.

Your water heater must be at a higher elevation than your attic. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be seeing water from the drain coming down into a wall and into your kitchen. I’m going to assume your water heater is also located where it would be difficult to drain into a bucket, or difficult to connect a garden hose for draining. That would explain why they plumbed a drain line to another location. If that drain line no longer terminates where it originally did, then the plumber should have removed that branch line. Or maybe they capped it in the wall somewhere and that cap failed.

As I said, if you had the plumbing replaced years ago and it just started leaking now, it was obviously fine for a while. Without knowing what existed before you had the plumbing work done, where that line drained to, and what the plumber actually did, I can only guess why it was done the way it was. If my assumptions are correct, and I had done this work, I would have done things differently.

But, as I said before, if it was fine for several years and only recently started leaking, I think you’re stuck with fixing this and moving on.

there is no valve on that line

that is what I cannot explain, why it started draining at this particular time?

the water heater is standing on the ground outside. The branched copper line rises 12 feet, goes into the attic, goes about 40 feet the length of the house, and feeds into the old (supposedly disconnected) galvanized pipe in the attic. That galvanized pipe has open ended branches in the walls where they had been disconnected from all the water features. The one the flooded this part of the wet wall/hallway was one that we found. Other pipe ends may have been leaking into walls slowly, we would not notice that.

12

BTW you should also have a pressure relieve valve and line somewhere higher on the tank. Does that line tie into this line? The purpose of that line is to release pressure should the thermostat fail and the water heats to boiling where it might explode. The relief valve releases pressure/boiling hot water before that happens.

I can’t understand why it would start leaking all of a sudden unless someone opened the blue valve. is this outside? maybe some kid thought he was having some fun?

I don’t see a pressure relief valve. There is a 3 foot long open ended black hose (like a garden hose) coming out the top of it, that just hangs, that hose drips sometimes, so that may be it?

The water heater is outside, in my back yard. Only my kids would have access to it. The blue handle was hidden behind a sheet metal cover that I have taken off to get a look.

That black hose does sound like where the pressure relief valve should be at. usually a short pipe is attached, but a hose may work. The valve, if present, would be screwed into the tank and the hose/short pipe would attach to it. The pressure relief valve should have some mechanism to test. which would let out some hot water you could catch in a bucket… The fact it is leaking probably means you have one, but if it leaks it should be replaced. BTW watch this Mythbusters video to see what a water heater can do if your valve fails and the water heater overheats

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bU-I2ZiML0

The other poster may be right that that drain line was capped off and it failed. I doubt someone would run water from the bottom like that. It really should just be line that goes to some drain so that you don’t have a mess when you clean out the sediment.

13

That branch off the drain needs to be capped/removed. Looks like a hillbilly way of re-routing HW or something.

I would turn off that blue ball valve and tear it all out, then re-install the hose cock.

It also looks like there is no pressure relief as other shave said. Google hot water heater pressure relief valve, then make sure your HW has one. A lot more dangerous than a water leak.

Last I would pull out any and all galvanized that you can reach, to prevent anyone from hooking anything up to it ever again. anything that can’t be removed, cap off. If the plumbers pulled all of the fixtures from the galvy, but didn’t bother capping it off, you have a bunch of open pipes in the walls, that someone at some point in the future might mistakenly hook up to and flood your house. Bunch of fools if they didn’t cap it off.

14

The other plumber didn’t say anything about how this was set up? I would be willing to bet that what you have there is completely against code and was done by some previous owner as an “Easy way” to get another line to some part in the house.

Have you tried switching off the blue value and see if you lose water in some part of your house? My guess would be that this will be in some “Add on” portion of the house. You’ll have water everywhere except for this one spot.

That being said, if I were you, I’d take that out right away and run a line off the hot water from top.

Another thing to consider is whether or not the plumber replaces all the cold lines as well. Those lines will not be going thru your water heater.

As far as getting someone else to pay the best I can offer is that there might be the possibility of going back on the plumber that did the work replacing lines if the install that exists is not to code. Now if they told you about this and you said “Do it anyway”, while you could go back on them, not sure that would be ethical.

~Matt

15

That branch off the drain needs to be capped/removed. Looks like a hillbilly way of re-routing HW or something.

I would turn off that blue ball valve and tear it all out, then re-install the hose cock.

^^^ This for sure. I’m no plumber, but I can’t understand why that water heater drain would ever have to be routed anywhere at all - when you drain the water heater for routine maintenance, all you really need to do is screw on a standard garden hose to the heater’s existing hose cock, put the other end of the hose on a floor drain (or in your case, somewhere away from the water heater outside), and let 'er rip.

In the picture you posted above, imagine that hose cock (the valve with green handle) “backed up” so that it’s the only thing poking out of the water heater in that spot - I can almost guarantee that’s how the water heater originally was set up (i.e. it’s original out-of-the-box form) prior to this strange modification.

It also looks like there is no pressure relief as others have said. Google hot water heater pressure relief valve, then make sure your HW has one. A lot more dangerous than a water leak.

patf covered the pressure relief valve in an earlier post - I’m also confident that it’s the black hose that’s been mentioned. Under normal conditions, that valve should never release anything. If you see evidence of it releasing on any type of regular basis (or heck, at all), then you should consider installing a thermal expansion tank (google “water heater thermal expansion tank” for more info). That pressure relief valve releasing doesn’t usually mean anything is wrong with the water heater itself, it’s most typically related to a water pressure issue (and that depends on your location, what type of water service you have, etc). A thermal expansion tank compensates for higher water pressure, and takes that thermal “relief” load off of the water heater’'s pressure relief valve, so that you don’t have water occasionally spilling out and making a mess.

Last I would pull out any and all galvanized that you can reach, to prevent anyone from hooking anything up to it ever again. anything that can’t be removed, cap off. If the plumbers pulled all of the fixtures from the galvy, but didn’t bother capping it off, you have a bunch of open pipes in the walls, that someone at some point in the future might mistakenly hook up to and flood your house. Bunch of fools if they didn’t cap it off.

^^^ Truth!!!

So… back to that crazy blue handle… I believe you mentioned that this water heater is sitting outside… Is it possible that someone (prank, accidentally, or otherwise) recently turned that blue handle “on” recently? That could perhaps explain the sudden out-of-the-blue leak, since that valve being open would drain your water heater.

Cheers, Chris

16

Thank you all for all the excellent advice.

I did some more looking, and on the “hill billy” pipe that comes out of the drain (between the blue and the green valves/levers), there is what looks like a circulating pump about a foot up off the ground, behind the water heater, plugged into an electrical outlet just next to it.

So now my theory is that line was used as a hot water recirculating line, as the other end is at the far end of the house (not distal to the last hot water fixture, but just proximal to it - doesn’t make any sense to me).

Why did it start feeding water from the WH back to the galvanized now? Could the inside works of the circulating pump break down and start letting water through it backwards? Or as someone already said, there is a valve somewhere in that line (I did not follow its entire length through the attic, but have seen both ends of it) that failed over time.

As far as ripping out the old galvanized lines, that may not be possible, but I see why one would do that. Yes, all of the open ends are in the walls. It was a licensed plumber, part of a well known franchise/large company, and not some “friend” who installed the PEX. They did NOT cap any of them. And they definitely did NOT tell me about this rogue line that connected the WH to the old galvanized.

For a quick fix then, so that this doesn’t happen again when we forget about the blue handle, I could just cut off this recirculating line and then worst case scenario, the blue lever is opened, and water drains to the ground outside (the WH is outside).

The black hose, which we believe may be the pressure relief, is attached to the top of the WH like in this picture:

http://i59.tinypic.com/2j2w2zd.jpg

If the WH blows up, it would damage the gas line to it, which may lead to a secondary explosion. No lives would be lost from the actual blow up itself, as it is outside, surrounded by 3 walls that are double brick on a part of the house thats an addition and nobody is generally in it. But the gas line rupture may be bad.

So how do I best the black hose thing? is that a pressure valve on top?

17

patf - there is a circulating pump on that line, so it was probably feeding water TO the WH. Why it reversed, and started feeding water FROM the WH into the galvanized, is what still remains a mystery.

I might just cut it off and examine the inside of the pump - doesn’t that sound like a great idea?

18

… For a quick fix then, so that this doesn’t happen again when we forget about the blue handle, I could just cut off this recirculating line and then worst case scenario, the blue lever is opened, and water drains to the ground outside (the WH is outside)…

Again, I’m no plumber (simply a fellow DIYer with just enough knowledge to be dangerous! ;), so please take all this w/ a grain of salt…

Yes, as far as I can tell, your thought about simply cutting of that recirc line is a perfectly fine idea. As you mention, then the blue lever would just drain the heater via the hose cock there now (assuming it’s open too, of course).

The black hose, which we believe may be the pressure relief, is attached to the top of the WH …

If the WH blows up, it would damage the gas line to it, which may lead to a secondary explosion. No lives would be lost from the actual blow up itself, as it is outside, surrounded by 3 walls that are double brick on a part of the house thats an addition and nobody is generally in it. But the gas line rupture may be bad.

So how do I best the black hose thing? is that a pressure valve on top?

I’m 99.9% certain that is indeed the heater’s pressure relief valve - it looks just like how I would expect it to look. It does seem odd to me that it’s literally on top of the heater - more typically, they are on the side of the heater near the top, but it is what it is… It has a hose attached to it simply so that any discharge doesn’t just spew all over the top of your water heater (that would be not cool).

OK, just so we’re all on the same sheet of music here… That pressure relief valve has nothing to do with gas.

When you don’t use hot water for a while, all the hot water in that full tank starts to expand - that expansion has to go*** somewhere***. Most ideally, your existing plumbing just absorbs the expansion - if you haven’t used hot water for a while, go feel your cold-water supply piping feeding your water heater - it will feel warm (not super hot) to the touch - it may even feel warm perhaps several feet “up” the cold water piping - that’s your piping absorbing the thermal expansion for you. The kicker is when your house’s incoming water pressure is on the higher end (again, this simply depends on your water supply from the city or whereever), that higher pressure precludes the creeping-up-the-cold-pipe thermal expansion - the water pressure pushes back the thermal expansion. In this case, the thermal expansion still has to go somewhere, so it’ll instead dribble/leak out of the water heater’s pressure relief valve.

So, there are two ways to deal with that… You can just route (via a hose like yours) that relief valve’s discharge that expansion water somewhere harmless, but the far better way to deal with this is to add one of those thermal expansion tanks on your cold-water supply piping feeding the heater. Those tanks are relatively inexpensive and easy to add on. That way, the water heater’s pressure relief valve is reserved for real emergency use only (which is their intended design). Then the thermal expansion tank effectively allows your plumbing to absorb that thermal expansion, regardless of how high your incoming water pressure is.

Cheers, Chris

19

patf - there is a circulating pump on that line, so it was probably feeding water TO the WH. Why it reversed, and started feeding water FROM the WH into the galvanized, is what still remains a mystery.

I might just cut it off and examine the inside of the pump - doesn’t that sound like a great idea?

That brass fixture with the silver top handle attached to your black hose is your pressure relief valve. You should test those occasionally, but few probably do. you can google that if you want to. if it is leaking it is probably time to replace the valve.

I have no experience with recirculating hot water systems. Somehow, I would think that water has to get back to your tank to reheat. The idea is that water is circulating in those pipes in a way that keep hot water to the far room so it does not have to travel all the way from the tank when you turn a fixture on. One other possibility is do you or did the house have a hot water boiler for heat. I would guess not as I would guess you live in the south since your hw heater is outside. But sometimes a boiler also had a loop to a hw heater to heat it, but then you would not have a gas valve like you see there.

One other thing, I wonder what that brass fitting is that we see on the t-line between blue handle valve and green spikot? Could that be a one-way valve like a backflow preventer. If that suddenly went bad, water would leak through the wrong way to your open pipe.

I can’t really imagine what all went on there so I don’t want to give advice on what to do, but it has been interesting looking at your tangle of pipes. Sorry, hopefully we have give you some ideas.

20

This may be what you have check out this diagram

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/tcs.htm

it might be how your house is set up.

perhaps only the far fixtures were on a circulating system and other closer lines were directly fed? so hot may have split to some local fixtures, and the off to the far fixture and then back to the reciprocating pump and then back to wh through the drain opening. this diagram looks like what you are describing.

Did they cut out that pump or the recirculating lines coming back? If so that brass valve I mentioned in previous post is probably a check valve and it recently failed letting water go the other way. If they got rid of the recirculating piece, then they really should have removed all those extra lines to prevent this. How much did they even look at this wh/pump areas. I don’t see any pex. perhaps they did not even realize you had a recirculating system.