Can I get your opinion on how best to spend my money on a bike upgrade? I’ve been saving up to add a pair of Flo wheels (a Disc and a front 60) to my Cervelo P2. However, this winter I’ve been using trainerroad.com for my indoor rides and have really enjoyed the virtual power feature. Now I’m wondering if it might be a better investment to add a Stages power meter to my bike. What do you all think?
Just in case you’re wondering, I picked the Stages power meter because of its cost, and because it appears that the most recent round of software updates has greatly improved its precision. I understand its biggest weakness to be absolute accuracy, but I’m not sure that matters for my purposes. I would use the Stages meter with TraineRoad to determine my FTP, and then use that number to build a race plan. It seems to me that, as long as I consistently use the Stages meter as my power measurement tool, it doesn’t matter if its readings are objectively accurate. It should only matter that they are consistent, even if that means consistently skewed. I would also probably go ahead and buy the Stages meter as an entire crankset (Ultegra 6800) as part of a long term aspiration to upgrade my bike to a full Ultegra 6800 group.
As for the Flo wheels, I picked them, again, for cost, and because I like the combination of a wide rim and an aluminum rim. I don’t want reduced braking performance, and I don’t want to swap brake pads every time I swap wheels.
Why not get a used powertap rear wheel & LYC for ~$500, disc cover and flo 60 front? BTW, the “group” (105, ultegra, dura ace) is the very last place a TT guy should spend money. There is next to zero measurable difference between those groups for TT use. You could still use the PT on the trainer and for race-day pacing.
The source of inaccuracy in the stages (or any electronic power meter) is a lack of consistency.
None of them are merely offset by a constant amount or percent. If they were, you would just calibrate it to be accurate.
Hi all,
Can I get your opinion on how best to spend my money on a bike upgrade? I’ve been saving up to add a pair of Flo wheels (a Disc and a front 60) to my Cervelo P2. However, this winter I’ve been using trainerroad.com for my indoor rides and have really enjoyed the virtual power feature. Now I’m wondering if it might be a better investment to add a Stages power meter to my bike. What do you all think?
Just in case you’re wondering, I picked the Stages power meter because of its cost, and because it appears that the most recent round of software updates has greatly improved its precision. I understand its biggest weakness to be absolute accuracy, but I’m not sure that matters for my purposes. I would use the Stages meter with TraineRoad to determine my FTP, and then use that number to build a race plan. It seems to me that, as long as I consistently use the Stages meter as my power measurement tool, it doesn’t matter if its readings are objectively accurate. It should only matter that they are consistent, even if that means consistently skewed. I would also probably go ahead and buy the Stages meter as an entire crankset (Ultegra 6800) as part of a long term aspiration to upgrade my bike to a full Ultegra 6800 group.
As for the Flo wheels, I picked them, again, for cost, and because I like the combination of a wide rim and an aluminum rim. I don’t want reduced braking performance, and I don’t want to swap brake pads every time I swap wheels.
FWIM, I’ve had my Stages now for about 6 weeks and no issues, and as far as I can tell, pretty consistent. But OTOH I don’t; have another power meter to compare it to simultaneously. But I’m pretty confident that it’s repeatable over reasonable time intervals. I would use it to accurately track rapid accelerations , 5 or 10 second power. But any time I’ve tried to over compensate with 1 legs, guess what, muscle fatigue sets in and I’m forced to use the other leg more until I reach equilibrium again. At efforts of about 90%+ there’ too much leg fatigue to manipulate the results intentionally.
My biggest problem is that my Timex Cycle Trainer doesn’t display NP or 5s power. So you end up sort of averaging the values in your head on the fly… which is a little annoying to say the least. SO it’s not a great tool for accurate pacing, but it gives you a ball park so you know when you’re definitely going too easy or too hard. I should have bought the Garmin $500 for another $30 or so. I may still get it if Timex isn’t willing to step up and update their software soon. I’ve tried a few channels and just keep getting “no product updates planned”. I don’t need new product, I just need a firmware update to add a field.
Sounds like your equipment is fine and you already have access to virtual power as a consistency measure. Therefore, I’d ensure you had a proper bike fit and maybe a block of coaching prior to investing in either.
If you are already knowledgeable about training and ready to get more scientific, then a power meter is certainly a great tool…
IMO a power meter is the #1 upgrade a cyclist/triathlete should think about making IF they are going to take the time to learn how to analyze then apply that and use it or pay someone who knows how to do that for them. Before wheels, before helmets, before fancy shift levers.
I might look at Power2max or a used power tap or quarq before stages personally. But I’d get power before I got wheels.
NP and 5s power aren’t necessary. Can you set your smoothing to a rolling 2 or 3 sec?
Don’t worry about NP when riding worry more about AP. I can’t think of a time when I had an athlete discussion about a particular NP they should be striving for in a race/workout.
I would have liked it at savageman.
But I kinda reverse engineered it so no big deal. (my head unit at the time didn’t do that)
NP and 5s power aren’t necessary. Can you set your smoothing to a rolling 2 or 3 sec?
Don’t worry about NP when riding worry more about AP. I can’t think of a time when I had an athlete discussion about a particular NP they should be striving for in a race/workout.
I went through a similar evaluation recently. Before I started using Trainer Road, I was very close to ordering a set of Flos. After spending much of the winter with virtual power, I now see a PM as a much better investment for me. Will get to continue training with power during outdoor rides, as well as pacing during races. I saved longer to get a crank based system, and ended up going with a Power2Max. Waiting on it to be delivered…
@desert dude - Just curious, why would you choose 3 more expensive power meters before the Stages?
In the interest of most improvement, and from someone who has started training with power in the last 6 months - buy a power meter. If you can swing it, then look at a power based training plan or coaching.
And for the record, I use a Stages. I first had a SRAM RED Quarq then got a team deal on the Stages. After using them simultaneously I couldn’t figure out why I would need anything more expensive than the Stages. It works. It also works better in foul weather and major changes in barometric pressure (like climbing). Technically speaking, it’s also more accurate than the Quarq by .5% …which, is almost surely negligible in real world scenarios. Just like most of the differences between a Stages and an alternative that’s “better” because it retails for 3x as much
Technically speaking, it’s also more accurate than the Quarq by .5%
The accuracy of the measurement hardware is meaningless if there’s a systematic (such as a time-varying left/right power ratio) that causes the estimate of the power to be biased. Having used neither, I would not at all be surprised if, in the real world under real pedaling conditions with real riders, the Quarq provides a more accurate estimate of the power applied.
Because the stages only measures power from one leg, and the power balance of a person’s legs right vs left is not consistent.
So, you don’t know how accurate your power meter has been. It might seem like it is outputting reasonable data, it might even seem to be matching up with another power meter if you just glance at it while riding.
But then you dig deeper and you might find something like this:
But that is just DCRainmaker’s legs, that seem to be more unbalanced at higher, short term power outputs, on that day.
Yours might be different. Pedaling asymmetry is normal, and variable:
@desert dude - Just curious, why would you choose 3 more expensive power meters before the Stages?
In the interest of most improvement, and from someone who has started training with power in the last 6 months - buy a power meter. If you can swing it, then look at a power based training plan or coaching.
Also the power2max has a similar temperature adjustment functionality built in. The powertap has an auto-zero that seems to work really well to affect the same result as well.
And for the record, I use a Stages. I first had a SRAM RED Quarq then got a team deal on the Stages. After using them simultaneously I couldn’t figure out why I would need anything more expensive than the Stages. It works. It also works better in foul weather and major changes in barometric pressure (like climbing). Technically speaking, it’s also more accurate than the Quarq by .5% …which, is almost surely negligible in real world scenarios. Just like most of the differences between a Stages and an alternative that’s “better” because it retails for 3x as much
If you want to leave all the debate to others, or remove any doubt about L/R balance and variability, go for Power2Max. I think the cheapest is only $100 more expensive. Don’t spend any money on coaching, get Don Fink’s book for $15 from amazon and you’re all set. And a wheel cover for races.
Stages also has an auto zero. The Quarq I had included a l/r balance and I was within 2% so I wasn’t concerned.
If I can use both and not notice a problem in accuracy… Then why would the inaccuracy matter? How the units compare to eachother is irrelevant. all that matters is that the unit is consistent to ITSELF. You’re kidding yourself to argue any different.
And yes, I’ve ready every DC Rainmaker power review… He says the same thing regarding consistency. He also reviews the Stages higher than the Quarq in terms of weather/pressure.
For the record, though I haven’t used one, I think Power2max is an excellent piece. If you are in a position to spend 3x the price on it rather than the Stages, by all means help yourself. I took that money saved and put it towards coaching. I’m more focused now on torturing myself than arguing miniscule, practically irrelevant differences between equipment.
Stages also has an auto zero. The Quarq I had included a l/r balance and I was within 2% so I wasn’t concerned.
Well 2% about doubles the amount of error, and then is no reason to expect it is always going to be 2% at all power levels, all fatigue levels, and every day.
If I can use both and not notice a problem in accuracy… Then why would the inaccuracy matter? How the units compare to eachother is irrelevant. all that matters is that the unit is consistent to ITSELF. You’re kidding yourself to argue any different.
Right, if a power meter is consistent with itself, it will be a great power meter, because such a power meter can simply be calibrated and be accurate.
But left/right power balance is not consistent. It varies with fatigue, output, and from day to day. Thus the stages will not have consistent error.
Such as is clear in the graph above, where DCRainmaker was off by 30 watts for ~1 minute efforts. You probably wouldn’t notice that error until looking at the data afterwards, but there it is. It isn’t going to be like that for everyone, it probably won’t even be like that for DC Rainmaker on every ride he does.
Looking back at the first post, OP said he would be going with the complete 6800 crank which isn’t really the cheapest option. That same money spent could get you a Rotor Power2max and you don’t have to wonder about things you’d never notice anyway. If you’ve only got one bike it’s even more appealing. For me, the ease of swapping the left crank arm to my rain bike (where I don’t have to worry about chewing up my nicer drivetrain) was a huge part of my decision… But this isn’t about me and my needs.
OP, I think you’d be very pleased with going the direction of training with power. It’s awesome to bring a new level to your training that’s concrete. When the times comes, if you can even swing $99 for a 3 month training plan (contact Upper Echelon Fitness through their website and they can write one for you) you will be even further ahead.
