If we keep the hip angle the same as a normal road bike position by moving the seat forward
why does flexibility have anything to do with getting lower on the bike? Are people referring to neck flexibility?
in a related question, why would being really low on the bike have anything to do with how well you can run, again assuming you keep the hip angle normal?
It is going to put more weight on your shoulders I suppose, but less on your ass. That might even help you run faster!
If we keep the hip angle the same as a normal road bike position by moving the seat forward
why does flexibility have anything to do with getting lower on the bike? Are people referring to neck flexibility?
in a related question, why would being really low on the bike have anything to do with how well you can run, again assuming you keep the hip angle normal?
It is going to put more weight on your shoulders I suppose, but less on your ass. That might even help you run faster!
^^ That’s a big “if”… 
It depends on what you mean by a normal road position. I have 2. On the hoods is comfortable. On the drops is less comfortable but faster. My TT/Tri position is closer to the drop position, just rotated around the BB. I’m not sure its less comfortable due to flexibility issues, more weight distribution for me.
Styrrell
^^ That’s a big “if”…
It is, in that people don’t always do it. But the kind of compromise positions we regularly see that are blamed on “flexibility” aren’t anywhere near the point where you can’t satisfy that IF
^^ That’s a big “if”…
It is, in that people don’t always do it. But the kind of compromise positions we regularly see that are blamed on “flexibility” aren’t anywhere near the point where you can’t satisfy that IF
I agree.
You sort of answered your own question. The key thing in my mind is that a proper tri position isn’t one that “keeps the hip angle the same as a road position”. It’s more specific than that- hip angle between 95 and 105 degrees. I’m *guessing *that people with flexibility issues are riding with a hip angle greater than 105 degrees in the road position, it’s just that most people don’t really talk about hip angle in the road position. When you take these people and rotate them forward on a tri bike, keeping their hip angle the same as their road position, you end up with spacer monstrosities. If you put them in the FIST-prescribed hip angle, whether it’s on a road bike or tri bike, they won’t have the flexibiliy to ride it comfortably.
Like the notion of an ideally-fitting frame, I think that flexibility is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overrated.
^^ That’s a big “if”…
At least/especially under UCI rules.
I’m not sure ‘flexibility’ is really the right term anyway, unless one is really inflexible. I don’t thing the ability to bend one leg at a time into a tight angle is the issue–it’s the ability to produce a forceful contraction at that tight angle. I don’t really see what flexibility really has to do with it.
You’ve hit on the big myth among the unwashed out there, Jack. One need not be inordinately flexible to assume a decent aero position. That is the whole point of a tri-bike style fit, which is essentially rotating a decent road-racing position around the bottom bracket and into a reduced frontal area, lower time trialing position. There may be some additional shoulder flexibility required relative to the road position depending on how narrow the aero bar pads are run…but it is minimal, and nothing that a triathlete shouldn’t be able to handle as a swimmer!
VERY few people are truly inflexible enough that they can’t assume a decent low-front aero position. Their issues usually start with “well, a few years ago I had my back fused…” or something like that.
Getting comfortable in a reasonable FIST-derived aero position for long periods of time has more to do with training adaptation, the right saddle, and to some extent, (to borrow a martial arts term) a modicum of body hardening. I don’t care how you are sitting on a bike, if you haven’t been doing 100 mile rides…a 100 mile ride is going to come attendant with saddle soreness. If you’ve been riding a road-bike-like position and you suddenly grab a tri-bike and ride 100 miles in the aero position…you’re going to hurt in some places you haven’t hurt before.
Too many people give up on aero positions too easily. Not everyone is Dave Zabriskie or Torbjorn Sindballe. But NO ONE should accept being a bulldozer to the air in front of them.
There are two types of flexibilty at play here. Static Flexibilty and dynamic flexibity.
Static being a position you can move your body into and hold… such as touching your toes and holding.
Dynamic being a position or range of motion you can move your body into, then forcefully contract back to the original position.
When the hamstrings are tight it posteriorly rotates the pelvis, causing an individual to round his/her back to get into that low position. Because the back is rounded they have to strain to get their head up to see down the road. I would imagine that these people also have road positions that are less than ideal… but that postion doesn’t take the toll on the body after a ride that the tri position would. I don’t think this is an issue when following F.I.S.T protocol. I am inclined to agree that being super flexible(such as bending over and putting your palms on the floor) isn’t very important, possibly having it’s disadvantages when it comes to power production. But, on the other end of the spectrum having poor flexibilty will greatly hinder you, causing muscle imbalances that will quite possibly lead to injury. Many of us here are probably athletic enough not to have to worry about static flexiblity, and have developed a good range of dynamic flexiblty that is specific to our sport due years of training. For the newbies out there, and this discussion is usually based around them, a good fit is obvilously important to finding that optimal position, but they must also develop the dynamic flexibilty needed for muscle balance to continuously contract muscles forcely over an event.
If your hamstring group lacks dynamic flexibility and muscle balance not only will the quad/glute/whatever be fighting fighting to turn the weight of the crank but also the inablity of that hamstring group to eccentrically contract/lengthen correctly. Most of this is a neurological adaptation the body has developed over the years through inactivity/ poor movement patterns. This can be applied to other muscles as well. In order to maintain the flat back position you need a proper balance between the back and ab muscles. I would assume plenty of AGs have this muscle imbalance developed by over working the “core” in the gym through crunches multiple times per week only to try and balance it with back extension exercises half of the time(this exercise without out proper stretching tightens the hamstring group). So, now the AGs have very strong abs with relatively weak backs… and again making it hard to hold that balanced, flat back position. But this could also be noticed by watching posture while sitting in office, driving our cars, lounging on the couch, or standing.
once again, andy is correct. within the first hour of a FIST workshop we debunk this. as gerard puts it, if you can bend over and touch your knees you can ride a “pro” aero position.
but i find it more impactful to demonstrate this than to talk about it, so, in a FIST workshop last week i got retul harnessed and rode my road race bike – which is set up quite traditionally – in a hands-in-the-drops, sitting on the rivet, position, much like you’d ride if you were on the front taking a turn pulling a peloton. then i dismounted, hopped on the next trainer over, on which sat my P3, 79cm of seat height, 16.5cm of drop, 79.5° seat angle, arms in the cups.
in each position, my “closed” hip angle was 48°, measured using trochanter as fulcrum, angle’s lines thru center of knee and acromion (shoulder).
this closed hip angle is the only thing that would be affected if you lacked range of motion. in my case, tho – and in most cases – this angle achieved in your TT position (even an aggressive one) is nothing you don’t frequently ride while on your road race bike.
there is one other “angle” at issue, and that is the angle of the head or neck as you flex your traps. this is the one area where riding in a good TT position differs from what you normally experience on a RR bike. but i’ve got degenerated discs, and i can still manage it. i can only speak for myself, but, as in jurassic park, life finds a way.
So would you say that you’ve adapted the ability to extend your cervical spine and look up the road? Was/is there a period where you and others had/have to strengthen the upper back muscles to pull the head up and hold it there for a long period of time?
“Was/is there a period where you and others had/have to strengthen the upper back muscles to pull the head up and hold it there for a long period of time?”
look at how many pictures of pros, during a race, are shown with their heads down instead of looking straight ahead. i think the assumption is that you must hold your head in this look-straight-ahead for the entire bike ride when, in fact, nobody at any level races this way. obviously, your vision and visibility must allow you to race safely. but i move my head around a fair bit. it’s not just stuck in place, eyes forward, perfect profile, for an entire 40k, tho it would be nice if this were the case.
“Was/is there a period where you and others had/have to strengthen the upper back muscles to pull the head up and hold it there for a long period of time?”
look at how many pictures of pros, during a race, are shown with their heads down instead of looking straight ahead. i think the assumption is that you must hold your head in this look-straight-ahead for the entire bike ride when, in fact, nobody at any level races this way. obviously, your vision and visibility must allow you to race safely. but i move my head around a fair bit. it’s not just stuck in place, eyes forward, perfect profile, for an entire 40k, tho it would be nice if this were the case.
I personally think the pros, especially the time trialists, have figured out that lowering the head improves aerodynamics. Putting the head down is a deliberate thing and is part of good discipline to them. Watching people like Levi in the TT at the tour of California he was doing it deliberately and only raising it to look ahead on an as needed basis to make sure he was still where he thought he was on the course (when is the next turn coming up, etc.). They are not "moving their head around a fair bit", it is down to optimize the aerodynamics then they glance up, then it is back down - at least on the straight portions of the course. When the course is closed and there are no other riders around and there is a radio in your ear one can ride the bike pretty well just looking at the white line in the road. While it offers an aerodynamic advantage I don't think this would be a particularly smart thing to do in a triathlon with riders all around though.
Frank I am reading “Iron Will” and saw your name in there =)
pretty cool to be able to internet argue with famous people here
“Was/is there a period where you and others had/have to strengthen the upper back muscles to pull the head up and hold it there for a long period of time?”
look at how many pictures of pros, during a race, are shown with their heads down instead of looking straight ahead. i think the assumption is that you must hold your head in this look-straight-ahead for the entire bike ride when, in fact, nobody at any level races this way. obviously, your vision and visibility must allow you to race safely. but i move my head around a fair bit. it’s not just stuck in place, eyes forward, perfect profile, for an entire 40k, tho it would be nice if this were the case.
I personally think the pros, especially the time trialists, have figured out that lowering the head improves aerodynamics. Putting the head down is a deliberate thing and is part of good discipline to them. Watching people like Levi in the TT at the tour of California he was doing it deliberately and only raising it to look ahead on an as needed basis to make sure he was still where he thought he was on the course (when is the next turn coming up, etc.). They are not "moving their head around a fair bit", it is down to optimize the aerodynamics then they glance up, then it is back down - at least on the straight portions of the course. When the course is closed and there are no other riders around and there is a radio in your ear one can ride the bike pretty well just looking at the white line in the road. While it offers an aerodynamic advantage I don't think this would be a particularly smart thing to do in a triathlon with riders all around though.
I’m not sure ‘flexibility’ is really the right term anyway, unless one is really inflexible. I don’t thing the ability to bend one leg at a time into a tight angle is the issue–it’s the ability to produce a forceful contraction at that tight angle. I don’t really see what flexibility really has to do with it.
The problem with flexibility, as I see it, is not the need to produce a forceful contraction at a tight angle. When the hip angle is the tightest, the crank is at the top. The contraction that needs to be forceful there is the quads, which extend the knee, to push the foot forward (not down) forcefully over the top. Pushing down forcefully doesn’t need to occur until later in the circle, when the foot is actually starting to move down and the hip angle is much more open.
The problem I see with “inflexibility” and low positions is the energy lost “pushing” the recovery leg up to get over the top.
Frank I am reading “Iron Will” and saw your name in there =)
pretty cool to be able to internet argue with famous people here
I hadn’t noticed that anyone actually argued with me here. I will try to be more aware. 
Well not at the moment!
But, just in principle, that we can!
Frank I am reading “Iron Will” and saw your name in there =)
pretty cool to be able to internet argue with famous people here
I hadn’t noticed that anyone actually argued with me here. I will try to be more aware.
“They are not ‘moving their head around a fair bit’”
well, i think if you look at the pics in jason’s makeover thread – the pros cyclists he uses as examples – half those had heads/necks perched in some fashion other than straight ahead, tip of helmet against back, with lovqvist looking straight down. most of the time, these guys are looking down the road. but every so many pedal strokes, i think most of them change their head position in some way.
i’m not going to argue about this. if you’re certain they don’t, fine, you may state your opinion and i’ll let you have the last word. and, yes, i certainly think that head position is not irrelevant. that established, and for the purpose of the OP’s question, with the sole exception of neck flexibility, range of motion is not typically a limiter to achieving a “pro-like” TT position.