Fish question - need speed workout

Triathlon Forum
21

You’ve gotta love slowtwitch. Thanks for all of these great replies! I can say I’m a believer when it comes to all you’ve said about form. I still consider myself new in the swim game, but 2 years ago I felt like I had to furiously beat the water and who knows how many strokes it took me to take one length. I’m still trying to find that perfect count, but my optimum speed for 25 yards seems to take from 14-16 strokes. I can cover it in 12, but then I get to that slow down and glide thing.

So tigerchik, if I follow you correctly, a good set would be say something like:

7 minute warmup
10 X 100 (5-10 seconds rest between each, whew, that’s way less rest than I’m used to!)
cool down.

Or subsiture the 10 x 100 for 5 x 200 with 45 seconds rest between each set (aiming for consistent speed in each 200)

I’m also wrestling with how much to swim. I can do a 3500 yard workout, but do I need that much for the sprint part of the year, or is 1000 yards in a workout enough?

Cousin Elwood, I think I may be doing something like you are suggesting. I’ll do a warm-up, then 8-10 25s with 20 seconds rest after each. Is it actually better to rest longer (45 seconds) to build speed?

moulli and everyone else, thanks for weighing in and giving some really useful advice.

22

This is more of a physical “why” question for you all. We’ve said my short term goal is to swim a faster 500 - 750. In my simple thinking (which is likely rarely right when it comes to training) I would have probably just tried a consistent 500 for every workout, and hope it gets faster. What I hear is that I should do shorter distances (25s, 50s, and 100s) at high speeds, with high rest intervals in between. Oops, almost forgot the question :slight_smile: What does this do for the body? In order to swim a longer distance faster (500 - 750) and consistently, I should train at shorter distances with rest in between (not the race condition). Can someone explain to me how the muscles (lungs, etc.) learn and react through this process, I’m really curious.

23

Everyone says that acheiving good technique is key to swimming fast. That’s true but many uncoached swimmers miss a fundemental part of how to actually do that. Their focus is placed almost exculsively on learning the proper motions through drills etc with very little, if any, emphasis placed on physically conditioning the body to swim with good technique at speed and to increase swim specific strength so that basic technique can be improved. Learning the motions is not enough, you have to also have the physical strength and muscular endurance (and flexiblity too) in the specific muscles used in the stroke to actually go faster. The only way to do that is to push yourself to swim faster and work on holding your stroke.

Longer repeats will help build your muscular and cardio endurance and give you a less harried, somewhat less intense time to work on your stroke. Longer repeats are a key to any training program and I am most definitely not advocating against this type of work.

However, short fast repeats with generous rest are also a key part of any swimming program. They are akin to a weightlifting session. When your stroke starts to fade, it is akin to that last few reps in the weightroom where your arms are shaking and you’re struggling to get the bar back on the rack. That is where all the gain is made. Short fast swims allow you to seriously overtax your swim specific muscles and develop the swim specific strength and endurance you need to hold your technique. You’ll eventually be able to swim faster at all distances because you will be stronger and thus able to apply more force both because you are simply stronger AND because this increased strength and muscular endurance will actaully in and of itself allow you to apply better technique.

You will see alot of good swimmers talking about 100 or 200 yd repeats. A good swimmer with a few years of training under their belt can do 100’s or 200’s such that they qualify as the “short fast” repeats of which I speak. (Someone like Michael Phelps can do this type of work at virtually any length of repeat - God only knows how far he has to go to start losing his stroke). However, they always forget to tell you that they started off doing the short hard stuff at repeat lengths of 25 or 50. There is no shame in swimming short and fast. Its what all real swimmers do in as part of their training. And, its one of the reasons they can swim so fast.

24

You’ve gotta love slowtwitch. Thanks for all of these great replies! I can say I’m a believer when it comes to all you’ve said about form. I still consider myself new in the swim game, but 2 years ago I felt like I had to furiously beat the water and who knows how many strokes it took me to take one length. I’m still trying to find that perfect count, but my optimum speed for 25 yards seems to take from 14-16 strokes. I can cover it in 12, but then I get to that slow down and glide thing.

So tigerchik, if I follow you correctly, a good set would be say something like:

7 minute warmup
10 X 100 (5-10 seconds rest between each, whew, that’s way less rest than I’m used to!)
cool down.

Or subsiture the 10 x 100 for 5 x 200 with 45 seconds rest between each set (aiming for consistent speed in each 200)

I’m also wrestling with how much to swim. I can do a 3500 yard workout, but do I need that much for the sprint part of the year, or is 1000 yards in a workout enough?

Cousin Elwood, I think I may be doing something like you are suggesting. I’ll do a warm-up, then 8-10 25s with 20 seconds rest after each. Is it actually better to rest longer (45 seconds) to build speed?

moulli and everyone else, thanks for weighing in and giving some really useful advice.

Maybe it’s just me, but I think this minimizing strokes-per-length thing is overrated for triathletes. If you are gliding, you are not pulling and you are not propelling yourself forward, unless you are kicking a lot more than you should be and you are very streamlined. Even with the latter, you are decelerating, and doubly so if you aren’t going very fast. When you do 15 strokes per 25yards, how long does a 50 take?

N=1: I’m 6’ tall, and I’m not a true fish, having started swim training at age 26. This morning I did 5x200 (scy) on a 2:45 interval. I was typically taking 20-21 strokes per length, pretty much every length. Now, I don’t glide off the wall very far, and I probably take an extra stroke into the turn that I might glide instead, but I take 25% more strokes per length than do you! My times were 2:27/28/28/27/28, so I averaged :10 faster per 100 than your fastest 100. Consider our turnover: mine’s like .9sec/stroke doing a 1000yd set, and your fastest 100 is like 1.4sec/stroke. I did a hard 50 at the end of the workout, and my turnover was a little over .7sec/stroke. Unless you have a perfect stroke, you just aren’t going to get much faster with that kind of turnover.

As far as how much to swim: you need to put in as many yards as you can to ingrain good technique. Once you have that technique, you’ll need to swim as much as you can to maintain it until, many years later, it will take fewer yards to maintain it. Frequency is more important than total yards.

Many years ago, I did the swim leg of an Olympic distance relay. What really worked for me was doing all my intervals at the pace I wanted to hold in the race (with the wetsuit). So I’d do stuff like 100->500->100 by 100 at that pace plus :10 per 100. Once did 10x200 on just over that pace plus less than :10 rest. I grooved that pace on little rest, and did the swim at that pace.

Last anecdote. I swam with a Masters group for 4 years back in the 80s. The first year, we all did really well at YMCA Nationals, with lots of PRs (especially for me; for instance, going from 2:02 to 1:57 for 200 free). The next year, we didn’t do so well. The next two years, we did very well again. Swimming 6-7 events each year, I hit a PR on every single event except one, other than that second year. What changed that second year? Instead of 100s, 150s and 200s, we did 50s, 75s, and 100s. Even though everyone on the team except me competed in almost only 50s and 100s (I did the 200 and 500; one other guy added the 200br and the 200IM), skipping the longer intervals really seemed to detract from our performances.

25

Maybe it’s just me, but I think this minimizing strokes-per-length thing is overrated for triathletes. If you are gliding, you are not pulling and you are not propelling yourself forward, unless you are kicking a lot more than you should be and you are very streamlined. Even with the latter, you are decelerating, and doubly so if you aren’t going very fast.

Stroke count is important. It can be used to measure the efficiency of your stroke and form. The goal should be to optimize your body position so you can cover the maximum distance per stroke, not do a stroke and see how far you can glide to get a low stroke count. If you do the latter your time will suffer.

Take 2 swimmers with similar times one does a length in 15 strokes and one does the length in 20 strokes. The one that took 15 strokes covered more distance per stroke and used less energy, leaving more for a bike and a run.

26

what do you think about doing a couple of 1000 and 1500 TT’s in the month pre-race (1/2 IM or Ironman)?

27

Maybe it’s just me, but I think this minimizing strokes-per-length thing is overrated for triathletes. If you are gliding, you are not pulling and you are not propelling yourself forward, unless you are kicking a lot more than you should be and you are very streamlined. Even with the latter, you are decelerating, and doubly so if you aren’t going very fast.

Stroke count is important. It can be used to measure the efficiency of your stroke and form. The goal should be to optimize your body position so you can cover the maximum distance per stroke, not do a stroke and see how far you can glide to get a low stroke count. If you do the latter your time will suffer.

Take 2 swimmers with similar times one does a length in 15 strokes and one does the length in 20 strokes. The one that took 15 strokes covered more distance per stroke and used less energy, leaving more for a bike and a run.

The issue here is that the two swimmers do not have similar times. Take two swimmers, one does a length in 15 strokes and the other in 20 strokes. The former maintains a pace of 1:30/100yds, and the latter holds a pace of 1:15. The first swimmer is doing what you say is bad (“time will suffer”). The latter is apparently trading some efficiency for speed.

Maybe it’s just my bias due to my particular physiology, but it’s hard for me to picture a non-fish triathlete taking 15 strokes per 25yds and having much speed.

28

But is there a balance to be had between having good form and taking fewer strokes but pulling harder through the water and taking more strokes but using less energy through the pull? This has been a curiosity of mine lately…

I have a loooong turnover - I take between 14 - 17 strokes/25. Doesn’t really matter much if I’m “sprinting” or going distance. Did a postal at 4250, took stroke count 4 - 5 times, think I hit 16 once, 100 splits were within about 3-4 seconds the entire hour. I have a fairly long reach and put emphasis on driving with my hips and pulling hard through the catch. My pull goes back to my hips (there was a period of my swimming where I was a water flipper back in the day).

Friend of mine takes much shorter strokes and somewhere around 20 - 25/25. He doesn’t extend quite as much, and is a little slower then me currently (simply due to ability and time swimming). He also did the postal, I think he had a 5 second variance in 100 splits but first 30min and second 30min were within 25 yds of each other. He, too, is very consistent. He has a shorter pull, still a heavy catch, but he takes more strokes. He also has very fluid stroke and rotation.

Is he expending more energy by taking more strokes but pulling a bit easier or am I expending more by pulling fairly hard and taking fewer or are we about equal? And does it really matter?

29

Is he expending more energy by taking more strokes but pulling a bit easier or am I expending more by pulling fairly hard and taking fewer or are we about equal? And does it really matter?

I see it as like the spin/mash discussion about bike cadence- some people are going to do best in the water as spinners (high stroke rate/shorter distance per stroke) and some are going to mash in the water (low stroke rate/long distance per stroke)

At the elite level, the women in the post- Janet Evans era in distance swimmers have tended to be spinners instead of mashers. Kate Ziegler takes a surprising number of stroke per 50M for a program six footer. Laure Manaudou was a big time spinner as were Brooke Bennett, Hannah Stockbauer, Ai Shibata, etc.

Some people, especially women who have weaker shoulder structures, will just tend to do better if they’re not trying to muscle every last bit of water on every arm cycle and instead work on moving a slightly less amount of water on every stroke while keeping their cycle rate up.

And some people (Thorpe, Hackett, Phelps) have the strength and flexibility to do amzing things as mashers in the pool.

There’s no inherent virtue in one way of doing it compared to the other. It’s whatever works best for you after you do a fair amount of experimenting and testing in the water.

30

7 minute warmup
10 X 100 (5-10 seconds rest between each, whew, that’s way less rest than I’m used to!)
cool down.

Or subsiture the 10 x 100 for 5 x 200 with 45 seconds rest between each set (aiming for consistent speed in each 200)

I’m also wrestling with how much to swim. I can do a 3500 yard workout, but do I need that much for the sprint part of the year, or is 1000 yards in a workout enough?

To the first question, yes, though you want to aim for threshold sets that are 30 min or so in length methinks for some reason.

To the second question, MORE IS MORE

31

My personal favorite:

500 w/u
10x100
10x50
250 c/d

Start the hundreds at a decent split (coming back I start around 1:45). When I can make all 10 on that split two workouts in a row, I ratchet it down 5 seconds, and keep repeating the process until I’m at a point where I don’t think I can get any faster for the 10. Also do the same for the 50’s. There’s been a lot of talk about form - I’ve never had a problem maintaining form with this workout - it is short and fast. Also, I have never counted a stroke in my life and do fairly well in the water.

There was a post about a 1500 TT every once and awhile. I do one at least once a month, just to gauge my fitness level and see where I’m at. I also think these come in very handy on race-day.

32

I was just responding to your comment “…I think this minimizing strokes-per-length thing is overrated for triathletes.”, and point out how stroke count can be a useful training tool. Not compare your swimming to the OP.

33

what do you think about doing a couple of 1000 and 1500 TT’s in the month pre-race (1/2 IM or Ironman)?

What’s your goal for doing that? Just seeing what type of shape you’re in?

I guess… if I want to know what type of shape I’m in… I can tell from workout splits over the past few weeks or so.

34

That’s kind of what I thought. Ask me to “spin” in the water and I’m next to worthless - I probably look like someone drowning. That could explain my relatively massive shoulders though…

I am a spinner on the bike though…

Ok, thread hijacking complete.

35

Fitness gauge primarily…if done 1X p/mo or something like that. Not sure if it is a good distance to improve swim fitness for 1/2 IM/IM distance swims…

I have read a good # of your posts & think you have some good advice. My background is running, so I run well. I can bike good too. I love swimming, but came to it late in the game. After several years of swimming, I wasn’t getting any better. Swimming more often and doing more intense intervals has given me a bit of a breakthrough…I found that I know how to push myself to the edge in running and biking, but I was not very mentally tough when it came down to doing repeats in the pool. I am trying to change.

36

Swimming an all out 1000 or 1500 is painful enough that it seems it ought to be good for you :wink:
.

37

Whens the last time you did 1 of these TC?

38

I have not raced a 1500 (well it was a 1650) since last March. I went 19:45.

I have not raced a 1000 freestyle since last March. 12:0x I think.

I’ve had a very rough winter for swimming - shoulder injury (has been resolved), desert dude managed to plan bike rides while I was at training camp so that we would always get back too LATE to swim or his car would mysteriously break down and keep us from getting to the pool… and I’ve been ill for the past 3 weeks.

So I have missed all but 1 meet this season and thus don’t have any current times (or fitness :wink:

39

First, tigerchik, thanks for clearing that up - I’m looking forward to that workout in the AM. I hear you on the 30 min, thing. My workouts are ususally 1-1.5 hours, so I’ll adjust the number of sets accordingly.

Everyone else, seems like this should be called swimforum, seriously, I’m really enjoying all the insight. I can never remember every name once I get in response mode, but in anycase:

I follow on the spin vs mashing analogy. I’m a cyclist first (and a spinner, usually race in the mid 90rpm range) and that’s how I climb as well. I’m still trying to find myself in the water. For what it matters, body type I’m an ectomorph - about 6’1 - say 160lbs. Nice wingspan though, almost 7 feet. I’ve never been particular strong in the upper body, the quads are where it’s at for me. I feel more comfortable with a slower turnover in the swim for some reason, which seems backwards. My cardio is great, but if my arms start turning over too quickly, I feel like I’m about to crash. That said, I’m sure I need some faster turnover. 12 strokes per 25 yards = slow for me. Right now the spot where I can swim my “fast” and not pass out is around 15. Still, I want to be faster and I’m sure the turnover will wind up increasing. I may give that a shot and let you all know how it goes. I got down to a 17 second 25 last swim, but wasn’t really counting the strokes.

Tigerchik, I read your post in the critique my swim, and this is one guy who would post a video in a skinny minute if I could get one. I’ll take all the free coaching I can get!

40

For what it matters, body type I’m an ectomorph - about 6’1 - say 160lbs. Nice wingspan though, almost 7 feet. I’ve never been particular strong in the upper body, the quads are where it’s at for me. I feel more comfortable with a slower turnover in the swim for some reason, which seems backwards.

There was a nice study a while back that came to the conclusion that:

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=59&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&mid=437&ItemId=340

Stroke rate was negatively correlated with the height of the athlete and the length of his limbs. This means the taller the athlete and the longer his limbs, the lower the SR tends to be.

Stroke length was correlated positively with height and length variables. The taller the athlete, the longer the SL tends to be.

Stroke length showed a negative correlation with depth (thickness) and width of the athlete. Thicker and wider athletes tend to swim with a shorter SL.

So with that wing span, a lower stroke count per length within reason is probaly going to be more effective than trying to spin it.