Felt aero data?

Hello all.

I am looking for a new tri bike and Felt is very high on the list at this point, specifically the B2 or B12 (the tax return will make the difference…). I have seen plenty of aero data on here and other sites about the various Cervelos, the Specialized Transition, and the Trek TTX, but don’t recall having seen any data on the Felts. Is any out there, particularly relative to other bikes at the top end? Given that Felt is always touting their windtunnel work, I would think some data would have snuck out here or there.

Thanks,
Kevin

Raw?
Comparative?
Or just charts?

Fast enough. :wink:

Just charts would be good enough for me. I know that they are some of the better frames out there, and the differences between the top frames is not going to make a bit of difference in my time, I am just curious.

Kevin

Hello all.

I am looking for a new tri bike and Felt is very high on the list at this point, specifically the B2 or B12 (the tax return will make the difference…). I have seen plenty of aero data on here and other sites about the various Cervelos, the Specialized Transition, and the Trek TTX, but don’t recall having seen any data on the Felts. Is any out there, particularly relative to other bikes at the top end? Given that Felt is always touting their windtunnel work, I would think some data would have snuck out here or there.

Thanks,
Kevin

Felt is back in the wind tunnel today actually. SDLSWT to test some new stuff with some Garmin guys. The tunnel is currently used as a development tool, not a marketing one. There was some data that leaked its way into our marketing video on the AR, and other brands have published their data using FELT as a comparison to their own brand. It is tough to get unbiased results as the protocol for one such comparison is intentionally designed to favor the brand of the company doing the testing, and naturally, once the data “tells” you what you want, you hit print, and publish it.

As many have said before, if Felt publishes their comparison data, it doesn’t validate it, there is no reason to believe what we publish without independent verification. If I say our new frame has 600 grams of drag at 10 deg yaw and 30mph, it sure makes it easy for Brand K to say theirs is 599grams. There is a great deal of back and forth on this type of discussion, and for bikes like the DA and AR that are so far ahead of the curve, I wish we’d use those numbers and data points.

Today that isn’t the stance we take or the direction of our marketing efforts. Today we use the tunnel to optimize 3:1 tubing shapes and orientation incorporated into a UCI legal bike frame, not for marketing photoshoots for the homepage of a catchy website name like “theaeroestbikeever.com”…

-SD

hey, superdave I’m toying with the idea of selling my F3 and buying an AR 4 (I won’t get into how bummed out I am that I can,t get this as a frameset) but I’m wondering, based on your last post, is the 2010 AR going to face changes based on the new UCI 3:1 stance?

hey, superdave I’m toying with the idea of selling my F3 and buying an AR 4 (I won’t get into how bummed out I am that I can,t get this as a frameset) but I’m wondering, based on your last post, is the 2010 AR going to face changes based on the new UCI 3:1 stance?

No. The worry on my part was for the 3T bars on the DA bikes our professional cycling team is using. The AR meets every guideline the UCI put forth including the seatpost shape as does the DA frame, fork, and seatpost.

What UCI events are you planning on doing?

-SD

Does the stock 2009 b12 adhere to the UCI guidelines? Or is the aerobar setup in violation of the 3:1 rule?

As an amateur, do UCI rules like that affect me if I want to race a local road race and time trial?

Does the stock 2009 b12 adhere to the UCI guidelines? Or is the aerobar setup in violation of the 3:1 rule?

As an amateur, do UCI rules like that affect me if I want to race a local road race and time trial?

The stock aerobars do not meet the 3:1 guideline, they are 4:1. There is no need to worry today. The UCI would let you race those handlebars if you did need compliance tomorrow. You local time trials are almost never conducted under UCI guidelines in the USA, so I don’t think you need be concerned at this time. We’re stil waiting on the final “clarification” of the rules and the date in which they may or may not be enforced.

I understand there are some very prominent component makers working to maintain the current accepted guideline, not the new revised one.

Should be interesting.

-SD

You could always get together with some other manufacturers and pay some independent body to test the bikes.

When sending in a bike to this test, each manufacturer gets to pick the bike, wheels, tyres etc. Get it fit by a recognised independent person to an average bloke. Results come out and at long last, we have an answer!

What’s the matter? Scared? :wink:

You could always get together with some other manufacturers and pay some independent body to test the bikes.

When sending in a bike to this test, each manufacturer gets to pick the bike, wheels, tyres etc. Get it fit by a recognised independent person to an average bloke. Results come out and at long last, we have an answer!

What’s the matter? Scared? :wink:

“pay some independent body”

Oh that seems like a marketing budget shoot out.

Finding that independent body doesn’t seem as easy as you might think. Who would you suggest?

I’ll do it if you want!

Tell someone who is not in the cycling world, but gets aerodynamics, to organise the testing at a location unknown to you. Tell them to speak to some guys who know how to test bikes to avoid common pitfalls. All companys going along pay $X per bike up to a max of 3. Feel free to send along competitors bikes that are too scared to go themselves to show how bad they are.

Of course, not everyone can come out on top so it’s unlikely to ever happen!

You could always get together with some other manufacturers and pay some independent body to test the bikes.

When sending in a bike to this test, each manufacturer gets to pick the bike, wheels, tyres etc. Get it fit by a recognised independent person to an average bloke. Results come out and at long last, we have an answer!

What’s the matter? Scared? :wink:

“pay some independent body”

Oh that seems like a marketing budget shoot out.

Finding that independent body doesn’t seem as easy as you might think. Who would you suggest?

Hell…just send each bike to me and I’ll take them one at a time over to the halfpipe course and “Chung” 'em :wink:

WAAAY cheaper than a wind tunnel…the only “cost” would be that I get to keep the bikes :slight_smile:

You could always get together with some other manufacturers and pay some independent body to test the bikes.

When sending in a bike to this test, each manufacturer gets to pick the bike, wheels, tyres etc. Get it fit by a recognised independent person to an average bloke. Results come out and at long last, we have an answer!

What’s the matter? Scared? :wink:

“pay some independent body”

Oh that seems like a marketing budget shoot out.

Finding that independent body doesn’t seem as easy as you might think. Who would you suggest?

Hell…just send each bike to me and I’ll take them one at a time over to the halfpipe course and “Chung” 'em :wink:

WAAAY cheaper than a wind tunnel…the only “cost” would be that I get to keep the bikes :slight_smile:
Sure, and then in my second paragraph in our catalog I can say our frame was verified fastest by Tom A. on ST using the chung feild testing method: So then, how do I convince the other 99.813% of the buying public?

Sure, and then in my second paragraph in our catalog I can say our frame was verified fastest by Tom A. on ST using the chung feild testing method: So then, how do I convince the other 99.813% of the buying public?

c’mon SD, Tom’s word is good for at LEAST 0.197% of the population…

g

I’ll do it if you want!

Tell someone who is not in the cycling world, but gets aerodynamics, to organise the testing at a location unknown to you. Tell them to speak to some guys who know how to test bikes to avoid common pitfalls. All companys going along pay $X per bike up to a max of 3. Feel free to send along competitors bikes that are too scared to go themselves to show how bad they are.

Of course, not everyone can come out on top so it’s unlikely to ever happen!

I think the top 5 are already pretty well known. The configuration that will be submitted will favor each brand’s own knowledge of what makes their bikes fastest. It doesn’t seem fair to think you’d allow me to submit a 48cm DA with double disc wheels, Sante derailleurs, Scott extreme bars, Modolo front brake, etc…and again, what use woud THAT data be to me? Surely you’d see impressive numbers but how would that translate to the bikes you see in transition?

One might have a bike that did not make good use of hiding the cable housing or used an inferior brake location, in those cases just testing ALL the bikes without those items installed would allow a claim that the set up was “the same for everyone” but in reality some benefits would be overlooked by their omission.

Again, the aero data is much more useful in development than it is in marketing. It’s like Brand “S” claiming they have the lightest frameset in the world, those sorts of claims are simply difficult to refute by the average consumer, and yet they don’t carry much punch either as it is nearly impossible for the independent consumer to verify the claims.

Cervelo had it right when they concur with the testing that puts them at #2. The fact that many companies use them as the “bike to beat” in their own testing indicates the validity of their design and acceptance in the market. It couldn’t be a bigger slap in the face when other big brands publish their data and don’t even include a brand in their bikes tested, as if the design isn’t worth the time to invalidate it. It keeps me awake at night.

-SD

I think the top 5 are already pretty well known. The configuration that will be submitted will favor each brand’s own knowledge of what makes their bikes fastest. It doesn’t seem fair to think you’d allow me to submit a 48cm DA with double disc wheels, Sante derailleurs, Scott extreme bars, Modolo front brake, etc…and again, what use woud THAT data be to me? Surely you’d see impressive numbers but how would that translate to the bikes you see in transition?
So you’d stick to UCI or Tri rules. Additionally, you’d only allow people to use commercially available products. And yes, within those rules the brands would use the optimal kit for that particular bike. I don’t get why that’s a bad thing. Surely it’s more financially viable for the manufacturers to work out the optimal kit than the customers? Also, you wouldn’t submit the 48cm bike because it’s being set-up for a person of an average size.

One might have a bike that did not make good use of hiding the cable housing or used an inferior brake location, in those cases just testing ALL the bikes without those items installed would allow a claim that the set up was “the same for everyone” but in reality some benefits would be overlooked by their omission.
If your bike hasn’t hidden the cables properly then it won’t perform as well as one that has in the test. that’s sort of the point of the proposed test!

Again, the aero data is much more useful in development than it is in marketing. It’s like Brand “S” claiming they have the lightest frameset in the world
I wonder who brand S could be!?! :smiley:

My view of what sells bikes is skewed by this forum so is there any chance you could let on why people buy a certain tri bike? Is it weight, what their LBS sells, what their favourite rider uses, aerodynamics or possibly the reviews they see? Why is it that so many people pay huge sms of money for Zipp/HED wheels and Cervelo frames? The common factor to me is that they publish data and have sponsored riders (and some riders who go against sponsorship obligations to switch).

In the UK, a LOT of TTers use Planet X bikes. I’d guess that if you could state that your bike went X mph faster in tests than theirs that people would be more willing to switch. As it stands currently your average person just sees two bikes that both have aerodynamic tubes and they assume that they’re basically the same.

Thanks very much for replying btw, I know that some of us can be a right pain on this forum sometimes!

I think the top 5 are already pretty well known. The configuration that will be submitted will favor each brand’s own knowledge of what makes their bikes fastest. It doesn’t seem fair to think you’d allow me to submit a 48cm DA with double disc wheels, Sante derailleurs, Scott extreme bars, Modolo front brake, etc…and again, what use woud THAT data be to me? Surely you’d see impressive numbers but how would that translate to the bikes you see in transition?
So you’d stick to UCI or Tri rules. Additionally, you’d only allow people to use commercially available products. And yes, within those rules the brands would use the optimal kit for that particular bike. I don’t get why that’s a bad thing. Surely it’s more financially viable for the manufacturers to work out the optimal kit than the customers? Also, you wouldn’t submit the 48cm bike because it’s being set-up for a person of an average size.

One might have a bike that did not make good use of hiding the cable housing or used an inferior brake location, in those cases just testing ALL the bikes without those items installed would allow a claim that the set up was “the same for everyone” but in reality some benefits would be overlooked by their omission.
If your bike hasn’t hidden the cables properly then it won’t perform as well as one that has in the test. that’s sort of the point of the proposed test!

Again, the aero data is much more useful in development than it is in marketing. It’s like Brand “S” claiming they have the lightest frameset in the world
I wonder who brand S could be!?! :smiley:

My view of what sells bikes is skewed by this forum so is there any chance you could let on why people buy a certain tri bike? Is it weight, what their LBS sells, what their favourite rider uses, aerodynamics or possibly the reviews they see? Why is it that so many people pay huge sms of money for Zipp/HED wheels and Cervelo frames? The common factor to me is that they publish data and have sponsored riders (and some riders who go against sponsorship obligations to switch).

In the UK, a LOT of TTers use Planet X bikes. I’d guess that if you could state that your bike went X mph faster in tests than theirs that people would be more willing to switch. As it stands currently your average person just sees two bikes that both have aerodynamic tubes and they assume that they’re basically the same.

Thanks very much for replying btw, I know that some of us can be a right pain on this forum sometimes!

Brand “S” could be Scott, Specialized, Stevens, Soma, Surley, Sigma, Seven, Schwinn, Shogun, Saracen, Spot, Saab, Somec, Serotta, or it could just be a common letter used to represent a generic company and the industries’ tendency to claim outlandish details that are nearly impossible to verify or disprove.

People buy triathlon bikes to race triathlons. That is unlike nearly every other type of bike in terms of target audience. The first time buyer is much MUCH different than the second time buyer. The forum does tend to skew reality at times, I’d bet that there are more people that buy triathlon bikes without ever reading exactly how they should do it here.

The only way all those UK PX riders would switch is if PX raised the price considerably and/or suggested themselves that their bike was not as fast as one of the aforementioned “top 5”. Why would they listen to another company trying to sell them a new bike?

I’m using this old Dell computer because I asked Dell if I should switch to one of them new fancy Apple SuperduperBOOK things, Dell said I needn’t switch brands, but advised that I upgrade to the latest Dell. I was shocked to hear the opposite from the Apple salesman.

-SD

The forum does tend to skew reality at times, I’d bet that there are more people that buy triathlon bikes without ever reading exactly how they should do it here.
People may not read this forum, but I’d be willing to bet that most people will ask someone who’s been influenced by aerodynamic claims what their opinion is!

The only way all those UK PX riders would switch is if PX raised the price considerably and/or suggested themselves that their bike was not as fast as one of the aforementioned “top 5”. Why would they listen to another company trying to sell them a new bike?

It’s all about cost to benefit ratio. If people don’t see te benefit of getting something more expensive then they won’t. There’s not really any clear info out here that says what benefit I’d get by changing from a Planet X frame to a Felt or any other brand. When TT bike shopping, I thought it was worth saving for zipps as I’d seen data that said they were better. I couldn’t see any frame data, so I assumed minimal differences and went for a cheap one.

The forum does tend to skew reality at times, I’d bet that there are more people that buy triathlon bikes without ever reading exactly how they should do it here.
People may not read this forum, but I’d be willing to bet that most people will ask someone who’s been influenced by aerodynamic claims what their opinion is!

The only way all those UK PX riders would switch is if PX raised the price considerably and/or suggested themselves that their bike was not as fast as one of the aforementioned “top 5”. Why would they listen to another company trying to sell them a new bike?

It’s all about cost to benefit ratio. If people don’t see te benefit of getting something more expensive then they won’t. There’s not really any clear info out here that says what benefit I’d get by changing from a Planet X frame to a Felt or any other brand. When TT bike shopping, I thought it was worth saving for zipps as I’d seen data that said they were better. I couldn’t see any frame data, so I assumed minimal differences and went for a cheap one.

Surely you’ve heard that the Lotus is fast, why not buy one of those? Were you committed to a new bike? How about Walser? Do you not believe Felt’s claims? How about Cervelo, Trek, or Specialized? I’ll grant you that the difference in these frames may be small, but it is real. Once the investment is made for a new bike, why not buy the fastest one or the one you believe to be the fastest? You did so for the Zipp wheels.

Gaining a simple understanding of WHY a bike is fast, you can quickly narrow your search to companies that obviously follow the easy guidelines. You can still make a pretty fast frame without CFD or a wind tunnel, but ignoring basic properties of aerodynamics are often blatant by these open mold frame designs, things like CONCAVE leading edges on a downtube or the blunt (or flat) trailing surface on seat tubes show an obvious lack of understanding of how air moves over a moving bicycle.

Still, at the end it comes down to clever marketing of the collected data. That has lead to our claim of the fastest UCI legal bike available, and perhaps has lead a few others to the same conclusion. Can you name the companies that boast this claim? If you can’t narrow your search to just one brand, choose from the ones that have the data to support their claim, then just buy the bike that suits you in all of the other factors consumers consider when making a purchase: color, fit, price, dealer interaction, availability, homage to professional on same brand, willingness to respond to ST forum chatter…

-SD