Extreme Makeover- Bike Edition and positioning edition

Athlete- Up and coming young American Pro Andrew Yoder - this kid is 19 years old.

His Palmares include
2008 Results
****7th – Miami International Triathlon
2nd – Columbia Triathlon (second fastest bike split ever behind Chris Lieto)
1st – Mt. Gretna Triathlon
2nd – Philadelphia Triathlon (new bike course record)
7th – New York City Triathlon
1st – Wilkes Barre Triathlon (bike course record – 54:58)
1st – Lancaster YMCA Triathlon
3rd – Westchester Triathlon
18th – 70.3 Austin (fastest bike split 2:09)

Andrew currently rides a nice custom Elite Razor. We recently hosted Andrew here to make over his bike.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9559/p3053691.jpg

It was built with Dura Ace 7800 and 3T Ventus
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7444/p3053692.jpg

Here is Andrew’s position on the bike set up this way last year (with and without the 3t bars)

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/8287/bikewyw.jpg http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/448/100461570egdd4nswdsc003.jpg

Here is Andrew’s made over elite razor
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4051/p3053715.jpg

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6721/p3053724u.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4004/p3053718.jpg
Selle Italia SLR tri saddle team edition Dura Ace 7900 chain, front and rear derailuers, dura ace brake levers, jagwire bar cons with 7900 shift levers, Dura ace 7810 pedals and hed vantage 8 aerobar with lazy s bend exenstions. Hed 3C race wheels with vittoria tires and his new position- which after only 2 rides, he has adapted too and has already been seeing the difference. his words “Wow Jason! Just finished riding and rode in the aerobars for 75min. No stress to my upper body, super comfortable and fast! I was able to breath normally without any restrictions and felt powerful”

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7632/p3053711.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1834/p3053714.jpg

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4892/ttjason.jpg

The keys to what we did to Andrew are the same things that we and HED have been looking at over the past year for fitting and aerodynamics. Low hed, shoulders rolled in, narrow elbows. Contador “got” it- and he did pretty well at the Paris Nice TT. Andrew will be in the wind tunnel in a couple of months with us to further refine and fine tune his position.

longer stem or bigger bike.

Sure he’s aero (we think), but can he produce power in that position and then run off the bike?

Sure he cant - and his results prove that.
.

no he doesn’t, it’s a new bike fit. Seems to me his results prove he could have kept the old, less aggressive bike fit.

And my point wasn’t about him, it was all the focus on “aero” and “wind tunnel”… triathlon is one sport, not three you know?

And he looks cramped.

Apologies if you aren’t looking for feedback…

I’m not sure how he truly feels, but I feel a bit uncomfortable looking at him in the new position, almost like I’m being asked to fit into a small box or something? Maybe I should talk to a psychologist…

Also, looks like a 650c candidate to me.

Other than that, keep the toe covers off for the races and we’re all good!

and if you read the thread- you would read that I quoted Andrew saying “Wow Jason! Just finished riding and rode in the aerobars for 75min. No stress to my upper body, super comfortable and fast! I was able to breath normally without any restrictions and felt powerful”

Notice the head being droped as low as they can get it while the shoulders are being shrugged in to their ears
http://cyclingnews.com/photos/2009/mar09/parisnice09/parisnice091/DV481768.jpghttp://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4892/ttjason.jpg
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09pnSt1/$file/17.jpghttp://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1834/p3053714.jpg
here you can clearly see both riders shrugging their shoulders to their ears

\

Perfect example of shoulders not being rolled to the ears and or getting the head low

http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09pnSt1/$file/15.jpg
http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09pnSt1/$file/16.jpg

http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09pnSt1/$file/14.jpg

http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09pnSt1/$file/13.jpg

http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09pnSt1/$file/4.jpg

Pinotti IS shrugging

http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09caliSt6/$file/17.jpg

Levi is shrugging

http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09caliSt6/$file/4.jpg

lance is shrugging

http://grahamwatson.com/gw/imagedocs.nsf/images/09caliSt6/$file/8.jpg
Lovkvist is shrugging
.

Jason,

I read the thread. But I still stand by what I said in my first post… “longer stem or bigger bike. Sure he’s aero (we think), but can he produce power in that position and then run off the bike?” My important points in that statement are:

  1. I think the position looks great, but being and looking aero may sometimes be different
  2. for a triathlete, it’s the run that is important. You compared him to pro cyclists in your original thread, which is why I made the comment.
  3. I thought he looked a little cramped, ie. the stem/frame comment.

Sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way… I don’t know what you were looking for when you posted but I suppose I could have been more sensitive to your post.

Having said that, you reposted later in the thread a ton of pro CYCLISTS time trialing… again, I stand by my original statement… it’s the run that counts.

Finally, regarding his comment about riding for 75 minutes comfortably and “feeling” powerful… feeling is not an objective measurement and even I can ride 5 hours in my aerobars comfortably… even when I was poorly fit. Of course, I wasn’t able to run off the bike until I learned about better bike fitting.

Again, he’s a triathlete, let’s compare him to other triathletes and prescribe what’s best for him based on a large pool of successful triathletes, not ProTour time trialists.

Whats that sticking out of the back of Lovkvist’s helmet…an antenna?

OK, the real question is what happened to those Orange Ventus bars? I gotta get me some of those!

Did you react the same way when you got called out in Triathlon Magazine this month in numerous letter to the editor questioning your approach to fitting?

And, by posting all the photos of TdF riders you neglect to realize one thing…None of them has to run sub 6:00 miles off of the bike. I’d love to see one Iron or even half Iron distance athelte who has adopted a position as radical as this and done well.

Bob

at least you didn’t post any pics of cardboard boxes and bubble wrap ! :^)

i would 2nd or 3rd the opinion, he is too cramped up on the new fit. his body position doesn’t look like any of the TT riders you posted.

radio antenna
.

Since you brought up the op ed response in triathlete, I’ll address the answers for you as well as answer your "concerns’. First, you say we were “got called out in Triathlon Magazine this month in numerous letter” I ass u me that you mean numerous letters, yet there was only one (1) op ed written.
We were thrilled that Hank from Hi-tech sent in his op-ed. It gave Bjorn and HED another photo in the mag.

Adressing his issues that he has-
He talks about people taking a tour of a wind tunnel, a tour and spending time honing in on your position are two different things. 15 years ago, Inside Triathlon ran a story on how Paul Huddle can shave 30 minutes off of his Ironman bike split riding in an Obree Egg position. Innovation is part of why our sport is so great. We do not have governing bodies in triathlon restricting us from thinking outside the box too much.

Concern #1-people do not have the “muscle adaptability” or “time” to be comfortable in a new position. This is called training. You go out in a new position, and train, adaptations occur. Obviously you do not change positions close to a race, but in the off season (this particular article was published in Feb issue) you have time to adjust your position. Muscle adaptability- thebody reacts to stress, provided you give the body time to react. Over time, the reaction will be positive in nature, that stressed system becomes stronger and capable of handling more stress- training the un-natrual to become natural.

Concern #2- Humps in your back. They are not caused by hip flexors being pushed too far forward. Natural kyphotic postures are quiet common in people and THAT hump will aide in their aero position. John Cobb calls that a “B” back. We suggest in working on a ‘slight curve’ in your spine. Your spine is a made up of 27 vertebrae- 7 cervical, 12 thoracic, 5 lumbar, 5 sacral (fusesd), and 4 coccogeal that are usually fused into two. It is designed to curve (as well as twist) in natural kyphotic movements. Look at any person picking up a light object, you will notice a natural kyphotic curve throughout the lumbar and thoracic spine. This natural ability of the body to go through stable ranges of kyphotic movements allows you to produce and absorb force, then why not train them to become more natural, by not training what your body can naturally do is a sure fire way of getting injured.

Concern #3- Tipping the bars- we discussed in the article that angling the bars up slightly MIGHT enable you to narrow your shoulders more comfortably- comfort being the issue- we did not at all say that angling up the bars will make you faster.

Concern #4- There are as many studies out there saying that narrow elbows decreases air supply just like there are numerous studies that say that an H3c performs poorly in some forks and better in others- read NONE- sarcasm off- Much of this misinformation is based on personal experiences and second hand opinions but not on science.
We have performed gas exchange tests during fittings and have never seen decreased air supplies while narrowing elbows. As far as having rounded shoulders which Mr. Montrose condones, we agree to disagree with him as well. Rounded shoulders makes a huge difference aerodyanimcally and those who pay attention to it see its dividends. The proof is in all of the cycling pictures that I attached in the earlier thread. They are all paying attention to what is going to make them fast and take time work on it making again, the “un-natrual” natural.

Here are some pictures for you of guys who are and do pay attention to shoulders. Amongst them there are multiple 70.3 winners and podium finishers (Bjorn Andersson) as well as Ironman winners (cam brown, Marcel Zamora) and podium finishers (podiums at IM Wisconsin and Korea, Paul Fritzsche)

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7738/smallerjpegdsc0775bjorn.jpg

http://img.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0801/39826e2f36dee8efcafe.jpeg

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2995/pic3k.jpg

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3064/p1292851.jpg

Jason:

  1. Thank you for your reponse.

  2. You got call out in Triathlon. The man patently disagreed with just about everything you had to say. If your upside is that you got a photo, then your purpose was promotion. It’s OK to admit you got called out as it shows the two school of thought on this matter. It’s Ok man, really you got called out.

  3. Inside Triathlon did a mutil-issue story on bike fit and one of their top pointers was something along the lines of “If my position is aero and painful, I can adapt to it because its faster.” I know I am not quoting that properly, but they too disagreed with your “training makes it feel better” stance.

  4. Compare Yoder’s position to that of the other ones you have posted here. No one else looks as, well, unnaturally crunched up as Yoder. Some might even call his new position “all jacked up” as it looks painful and almost dangerous in the way it limits his vision. Don’t get me wrong, the kid is 19 and has mad skills, but is this REALLY going to make him better? What happens if you take Yoder to the tunnel and, whoops, he’s not as strong in this position? Do you admit you’re wrong and switch back? What if Bjorn walks the last half of an IM Marathon as he did at IMLP in 2008 complaining of physical issues that might be related to his agressive bike fit? Do you switch him back?

Bob

His new position looks a lot better.

Did you react the same way when you got called out in Triathlon Magazine this month in numerous letter to the editor questioning your approach to fitting?

And, by posting all the photos of TdF riders you neglect to realize one thing…None of them has to run sub 6:00 miles off of the bike. I’d love to see one Iron or even half Iron distance athelte who has adopted a position as radical as this and done well.

Bob
I have no problem with what you are saying, I just have to ask, why Iron/half distance athletes? You guys do realize there is more to the sport than just Ironman, right?
I don’t know many of the races the kid participated in, but it seems that most of them were not Iron or half-iron distance, so maybe he could benefit from a more aggressive position.
Just curious.

And BTW, this 19 year old kid just crushed my dreams! Holy crap, I’m only a year older than him, and I hope to maybe be as fast as him after about 5-10 more years of training.

You guys do realize there is more to the sport than just Ironman, right?

Duh. Of course. There’s UltraMan too.

-Jot

Not to change the subject, but in the very first picture…is that a Ridley Dean frame sitting in the corner???

so jealous.

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of a deca-ironman, but I guess ultraman works too. :wink: