Evidence-based vs Belief-based coaching: A new definition

Once in a while, the opposition between Evidence-based vs Belief-based coaching comes up, in reference to an Internet article from Dr. Rushall. However, whenever I hear about this, I always think of the following definitions:

Belief-based coaches:

These are the coaches you are supposed to believe that they’re good coaches.

You go into their websites and click on the “About Us” link. Some of them will tell you how good of an athlete the coach is, which is strange because people that visit the site are not triathlon team managers or marketing agents, they’re not looking for an athlete, they are looking for a coach. So with that information at hand we’re supposed to believe that they’re good coaches.

Others will tell you that they’re “elite coaches”. You dig a little deeper in the site, but there’s no mention of they ever working as an elite coach, for example as the national coach for some country. Or that they have some kind of high-level coaching certification. Or that they have worked with (real) elite athletes. They’ve only been coaching for less than 5 years, amazing progression to get to elite level. No, we’re just supposed to believe that they’re good coaches.

There are also the McDonalds-type coaches: Millions served! More than one coaching service prides themselves of having helped “hundreds of athletes” throughout the years. However, if you do some quick math, and knowing for how long the service has been in business, either the coaches have at one time close to one hundred athletes or the “hundreds of athletes” were more like “dozens of athletes". But… we’re supposed to believe that they’re good coaches.

Another kind are the “scientists”. They have pseudo-science articles on their website, where they have the right references but the wrong extrapolations to training, often twisting the conclusions stated in the paper to fit their particular view. If there’s one paper that supports their view and 10 papers that refutes it, we know what paper will be quoted. Through the use of pseudo-science lingo, they want us to believe that they’re good coaches.

Finally, we have the guru-type coaches. They read a Zen book sometime in their life and they’ve developed their own Zen approach to triathlon. They use half-words to describe everything, not wanting to risk being wrong. They say things like “the way you train is not important (but just in case, do what I say)” or “The goal is not important as the process”, especially as consolation for their athletes setbacks (or their own). The way they express themselves project that they’re profound and have a deep understanding of the sport, but again we have to believe that they’re good coaches.

Evidence-based coaches:

These are the coaches for which you have factual evidence that they’re good coaches.

Coaching is a goal-oriented activity. Every athlete that hires a coach has goals and 99% of the people that hire a coach is to achieve a particular competitive goal. Therefore, success in coaching is easily measured in results. While this train of thought seems obvious to me and to many of those that read it, it is quite amazing how the measure of success of a coach, results, are out of the whole process of choosing a coach.

That’s where my (new) definition of evidence-based coaching comes from. With evidence-based coaches you have evidence of their success because you know who their athletes are, how they perform and more importantly how they improve. You can go back and look them up, their results, i.e., their coach’s success with them. You will see if they progressed or not. In this age of having our whole lifes on Google, you can even contact the athletes, know how is the coach, if they’re satisfied, etc. It is surprising how the belief-based coaches I defined above are very keen in not letting us know who are the athletes they coach. It’s all very secret for “privacy” reasons, but whenever they have an athlete do well, they’re the first going around publicly babbling about how well their athlete did at this race.

Evidence-based coaches are not afraid to put themselves on the line and assume credit for their successes as well as responsibility for their setbacks, because both success and failure are part of a coach’s job. Evidence-based coaches don’t play the blaming game of “when you do well it’s because of me and when you do poorly is because of you”. With evidence-based coaches you have evidence that did well with multiple athletes and not just one athlete.

So is Tom, Dick or Jane a good coach? I don’t know, show me the evidence.

I have more evidence of the effectiveness of Power Cranks than of most coaches. And just about every objection aimed at PCs applies equally to any coach.

You said:

With evidence-based coaches you have evidence of their success because you know who their athletes are, how they perform and more importantly how they improve. You can go back and look them up, their results, i.e., their coach’s success with them. You will see if they progressed or not. In this age of having our whole lifes on Google, you can even contact the athletes, know how is the coach, if they’re satisfied, etc.

I believe that you’re missing a step in the equation, so to speak. Certain coaches make information available (on their website or otherwise) about their athletes. So, you know who SOME of their athletes are. Not to single you out, but are ALL of your athletes on your website? And you have some of their results (or they are avaibale through exhaustive searching). And are all of their results posted? How can you compare a time (result) versus an undisclosed goal? Again, not to single you out, but do your athletes post thier goal results (pre race) for others to examine? What about former athletes? Those tha may NOT have achieved the desired results? How could one (hypothetically) reach out to that person and obtain information on the coach, his or her processes, goals, satisfaction, etc. And how can one determine whether the athlete’s results (regardless of whether any stated goals were met) were as a result os, or in spite of the actions of, said coach?

My point here is to clarify that you’re asking people to (or assuming they will) act on incomplete information.

ok, so how does your record over all your years of tri coaching stand up to your own ‘evidence-based’ standard?

Paulo, good points. But people don’t make rational decisions. Sometimes they would rather be associated with a coach who is himself fast rather than a coach that will make them fast. Sadly, it is part of the marketing.

Even a guy like Desertdude realizes this reality. Before Wildflower he said he chose not to race, because some potential customers might see a not par result and it could adversly affect things. How he races, clearly has no impact on how he coaches, but it just happens to be part of the decision making criteria of some customers!

How he races, clearly has no impact on how he coaches

I don’t think it’s as clear as all that. While not every fast athlete would make a good coach (obviously), if you’re a coach who races yourself, it’s reasonable to expect good athletic performance out of you. It’s at least a valid data point- if you can’t coach yourself to a decent performance, why should I think you can coach me to good performance?

Some of the best coaches in all walks of life couldn’t play the sport to save their lives. However, they have an uncanny ability to analyze the game and what it takes to win at the game.
So do you think that all professors teaching Business at the Harvard Business school are able to go out and create/run a fortune 500 company? Not likely. However, they are well versed in all the details of what it would take to do so.

if you can’t coach yourself to a decent performance, why should I think you can coach me to good performance?

great point.

also supports the idea of the coach having some excellence in the sport he/she coaches.

on what evidence would you base a correlation between the race performance of the coach, and the competency of the coach?

**on what evidence would you base a correlation between the race performance of the coach, and the competency of the coach? **


An interesting question. I don’t have a pat answer, I’m afraid. I think that if I were looking for a coach, though, I’d be disinclined to hire one who’s BOP. MOP? I dunno.

Of course, it’s true that a lot of great coaches aren’t athletes at all. You don’t need to be an athlete to be a good coach. But if your coaching methods are sound, and if you race as well as coach, I think it’s reasonable to expect that your coaching methods be reflected in your racing performance.

In other words, if you buy into this “evidence based coaching” idea, the self-coached athlete’s own performance is evidence, just as the performance of his other athletes is evidence.

But it does show why the evidence based coaching concept is basically worthless. You have no real way of telling how much of the athlete’s performance is attributable to coaching, and how much to genetics, drive, mere consistency, etc and so on.

I agree with many of your points, I have always wondered why coaches spend exhaustive amounts of time talking about how good they are, if I were going to hire one, I would rather see how they turned several 11-12 Ironman “finishers” into AG winners or better. After all, thats why you are hiring a coach, I think that it is fine if the coach is a good athlete, but more importantly, Do their athletes find success. I have seen lots of websites for coaches (some of whom I have known personaly) that talk about this PR and that PR and how great of a triathlete the coach is, problem is, they have never helped any athletes achieve high levels of success. Fact of the matter is that if all you want to do is finish an IM, you don’t need a coach, give yourself 6 months and buy a book about training. So who really cares if coach “X” has got hundreds of people across the line.

One more point, like Paulo said, we are just supposed to believe these people about how good they are. I had an encounter a few months back with a coach saying all this stuff on his website, when I looked into it, I found out that probably 75% of what this guy said he did or what his “athletes” did was actually bullshit. Problem is, You call somebody out on their bullshit and you get ripped on yourself, Why?, should we all just hand over our hard earned $$$ to some guy who makes all these cryptic claims of success on a website? I don’t think so.

Good post Paulo, it was nice to see you write something that was more than one sentence or simply a quote of what another poster said.

For those who haven’t read the article referenced in the original post, here’s a LINK
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I can see why you would want a coach that is also an athlete, nothing wrong with that, my coach is a great athlete and so I know that he knows what he is talking about, he also has the coaching resume to go with it. But, I dont think it has to be that way.

What would you rather have,

A:
A coach that is a sub 9 hour Ironman and a 2:30 marathoner but hasn’t really coached any athletes to success

or

B:
Somebody who apparently dose not race(maybe has in the past) but, has coached the fastest runner in Kona, helped a guy to second place at IMC, and works with the USAT age group champion as well as several sub 10 multi time Hawaii finishers

…more importantly how they improve…

That is the key, IMO. The purpose of training is to be better tomorrow than you were yesterday.

So, how does a coach quantify how well they help people get better?

I might not be making myself clear. I’m not saying that a coach has to race to be a good coach. I am saying that if he *does *race, his race performance can reasonably be taken as evidence of how good his coaching is. Assuming, reasonably, that he’s self-coached.

In other words, I wouldn’t look at a coach who didn’t race at all and think, “He can’t be a good coach.” He very well could be. I *would *look at a coach who finished last in his age group in his last three races and think, “That guy doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing.”

I am definitely not saying that because someone is fast, he’d make a good coach.

I agree 100%
.

… if you can’t coach yourself to a decent performance, why should I think you can coach me to good performance?

Because time is the most important ingredient to endurance training. If a coach only chooses to train, say, 8 hours a week, why would an athlete think the coach doesn’t know what he’s doing? What about coaches who don’t compete at all, or compete just for fun?

I don’t know that Brett Sutton has ever even competed in triathlon, yet he’s coached multiple world champions.

Ultimately, the measure of a coach is how well his/her athletes improve, and how close they come to realizing their potential. The coach’s own race performances are merely advertising, and potentially misleading advertising at that.

Good stuff, Paulo. However, this approach works better for those coaches who deal primarily with professional athletes, who are comfortable having their bios on a coach’s site. Most AGs would probably not welcome being on a public site. Your approach would still hold, but it would be harder to track down the coach’s athletes and how much they progressed under his/her tutelage.

How he races, clearly has no impact on how he coaches

I don’t think it’s as clear as all that. While not every fast athlete would make a good coach (obviously), if you’re a coach who races yourself, it’s reasonable to expect good athletic performance out of you. It’s at least a valid data point- if you can’t coach yourself to a decent performance, why should I think you can coach me to good performance?

If you were someone that was concerned with the athletic abilities of a potential coach, I think it would be better to look at how that coach used their own “system” to show meaningful impovement in their results over time.

In other words, there might be a coach that is fast in absolute terms, but who was always been that fast, meaning their system hasn’t done squat for their performance–they also might have been faster still, before adopting their training methodologies, in which case their approach is also an inferior one because it made them slower.

If you were someone that was concerned with the athletic abilities of a potential coach, I think it would be better to look at how that coach used their own “system” to show meaningful impovement in their results over time.

Sure. Same goes for the performance of his athletes. How many coaches provide that kind of information about their athletes? And even if they did, how much of their athletes’ improvement could be attributed to simple consistency, longetivity in the sport, increased training volume, motivation, etc etc etc? (Again, the same sorts of objections to the evidence of the effectiveness of Power Cranks.)