Ever thought of chucking it all and moving to Italy?

Triathlon Forum
1

The wife and I got to talking about how our lives, though good by all accounts, are missing adventure. We’re both working and doing all those things good Americans do to live quiet lives of desperation, but heck… it all seems so average, you know?

At any rate, the thought of moving to Italy, restoring old houses, running a B&B, or opening a bike tour biz seems a romantic, if not possible plan for us in the next five years. I’m aware that any place will have it’s warts – they always do – but I was wondering if anyone else here has thought of doing this or actually taken the plunge.

2

Italy, no…Spain, yes. Everyday I ask my wife when I can start packing.

3

Shad: Are you two serious about it, or is it just “fun talk”? It seems like you get a lot of housing bang for your buck in Spain and Italy.

4

I am Italian and moved here to North America about 6 years ago, if you have questions please feel free to PM me: the grass always seems greener on the other side, believe me ;).

5

I’m very serious about it but my wife has to teach here in Albuquerque for two more years (the public school system paid for her masters degree). I figure I can write software or be a systems administrator anywhere in the world and my wife already speaks some Spanish (it was her minor when she got her bachelors degree). I don’t know what she would need to be an elementary special ed teacher in Spain but I’m really disappointed by the short sighted world view most Americans have, I don’t know if it is any better in Europe but even if the grass isn’t greener the view changes.

6

-Lots and lots of work but if it is your passion you will be fine.

A lot of people try to move away to outrun their problems or a situation. when they get to where they are going they discover changing geography does not change their lives.

Stressed out, dissatisfied people will be stressed out and dissatisfied whereever they go. Their problems are internal, not a matter of geography.

You don’t strike me as that kind of person 3Sport. You seem pretty cool.

Colorado, California, Seattle and Florida are full of transplanted malcontents. Fiji and Australia and the Caribbean are even worse.

8

If you’re young and don’t have kids then why not go for it. I left to live in England for a couple of years with my girlfriend (later wife and now ex wife) years ago when we were young and carefree. It might not be as easy as you think unless you have ethnicity from those countries. I know with Britain it can stretched back to grandparents. Makes residence there a lot easier to get. Have to consider visas, work permits, etc.

10

Yeah. The idea isn’t to outrun our problems. My dad did that for years and it’s not a mistake I want to ever repeat. We’re looking for an enriching experience for ourselves and our son and the possibility of living simpler, quieter lives. It seems the Italians know how to relax and enjoy living more than we Americans do. Hard work has never scared me, hard work for someone else is mind-numbing, however. As a bike shop owner, I’m sure you understand how much easier it is to work hard when you are working for yourself.

That said, I know I could do the same thing here. But moving to another place in the states woild just mean changing my selection of Wal Marts and McDonald’s with another set of Wal Marts and McDonalds. It’s a big world out there and we’re still (relatively young). We do have a son, but I’ve heard from expatriates that Italy values children and family above almost anything else.

11

Larry:

Umbria and the northwest part of Tuscany are on our short list. Have you done any research about earning a living in Italy? I hear finding a job as an “immigrant” can be daunting. But I wonder if it is just as difficult to start a business and become an employer.

12

I think of moving to different places all the time, and did so a couple of times when I was younger, although I was only stateside.

If you both have the opportunity and desire, go for it. Life is an adventure that is meant to be enjoyed, not spent counting regrets. It is the dissatisfaction, or stagnation, that you feel that keeps you motivated, keeps you moving. As you say, too many Americans pull the security of their (relative)affluence around them like security blankets, and never really experience life. They have to buy things to feel alive.

Seize life, seize adventure, live your life your way.

Anyway, running a B&B in Italy can’t be much more expensive than doing triathlons. ;p

13

The U.S. is a fine country but it is an odd society. We work so hard and have so little. It is a sad commentary.

Sure, the 5,000 sq ft. house with the pool, the two BMW’s and the $300K W2 are really very nice for those who have it. But it’s the 90 hour work weeks, 8 years of college, leveraged to the hilt at the bank and the trail of divorces that typify the American lifestyle.

I’ve seen people in Jordan, Syria, Tanzania, Kenya, Vietnam, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Morocco, the Caribbean and Thailand with no BMW, no big fancy house and not many cares either. They have a big, happy family and spend a lot of time outside in the sun. Sometimes they just spend hours sitting with a smile on their face watching the world go by.

In Tanzania I was driving to a game preserve to go on Safari when I asked a local driver why so many people sit by the road in Arusha, Tanzania.

“What are they waiting for?” I asked.

“Nothing” he said. “They are watching the traffic go by. When you wave at them it makes their entire day, they talk about it for hours. It is their entertainment like your TV.”

I envied how they could be so content with so little.

15

the only thing is that in Italy even if you work 90 hour work weeks with 8 years of college unless your family was already rich to start with and you ended up in some ‘well connected and well paying’ job you can forget anything but renting a small apartment in the suburbs… ask any Italian about the cost of life there (especially since the introduction of the euro) and you’ll see.

Not to mention that as a non-EU citizen you’d need a work permit and residence permit (not completely easy) and a significant capital to start up (esp. if you plan to open a store of most kinds you have to get permits/licenses which is where you’ll start to see just how much red tape is needed to do anything)

Don’t misunderstand me, Italy is a beautiful country, the people are nice and if you pick the right area (cinque terre, some parts of Tuscany/Umbria) the climate/scenery are awesome as well and not too polluted (unlike in the major cities where in the summer it’s not uncommon to have days where you’re not allowed to drive b/c the pollution levels are too high), but it’s not that easy to start from scratch with the low salaries, high taxes and high cost of life.

17

This reminds me of a book that I read about 10 years ago called The Material World. It was a photojournal of the typical family in about 25 different countries, and its main focus was a two-page picture of the family(everyone who lived in the main dwelling) along with all of their possessions. All of them. It then showed numerous pictures of their daily lives, and had interviews with the families.

Invariably, the people who lived in the more advance/developed countries were less content than the people from undeveloped countries, while their discontent was focused on the acquisition of things, as opposed to the day-to-day struggle to stay alive.

18

Tom, you better hope ajfranke doesn’t hear you talking like that. He’ll have you reading his book list before you know it. :wink:

3sport, I can’t offer you any advice specifically about moving to Italy, other to to say I really, really liked my short visit to Rome. Three days was not nearly enough time in that city.

However, I can offer some general advice about siezing the bull by the horns and moving to new place. Don’t worry too much, just do it. Things will work out.

Five years ago, my wife and I were living in Columbia, MD, which is right between DC and Baltimore. No offense to the Maryland Slowtwitchers, but we hated it. We had our reasons, which aren’t really relevant here, but it just wasn’t right for us. We wanted to move to Idaho. I took a week of vacation time, and we flew out so we could scope out the area and look for a job. No jobs were forthcoming. We flew back to Maryland, and I kept up the Idaho job search from there for about a month. No dice. Finally we just decided to rent a U-Haul, packed up our belongings, and drove out to where we wanted to be. She got a job temping, and I delivered pizzas for four months until I found a job in my field.

At the time, we were glad we didn’t have kids yet, because we didn’t think we’d have had the guts to do that if we had children to worry about. In hindsight, it wouldn’t have really mattered- we would’ve gotten by fine.

Moral of the story? If you’ve done your homework, and it’s what you really want and think is best for you and your family, do it. God’s providence will take care of you.

Good luck!

19

some random thoughts

#1 it’s very hard to fire people in Italy (unions are much stronger than here)

#2 it’s very hard to hire people in Italy in the first place, and next to impossible to hire anybody under 18.

Everybody pretty much lives with their parents until at least their early 20s, but sometimes practically until you get married (even well into your 30s or 40s is not unheard of). Nobody works while going to university (it’s extremely rare) and this is sort of a two-way street, there’d have been no way I’d have been able to keep up with my University workload while also having a job, it was way, way, way too intensive.

People do tend to accumulate assets, personal savings are much higher than over here, credit card debt is practically unheard of as most credit cards are payable in full every month: when I got my first c/c I had to prove I had cash assets equivalent to 3x my credit limit for example. The problem is that cost of life is very high, so you really can’t afford to retire early unless you struck it rich.

Also if you have a family-owned store (given how the licensing works in Italy) it’s pretty much kept in the family forever or as much as possible, so it’s not uncommon to see people in their 60s or 70s at grocery/bike/whatever stores, this especially in the more rural areas as most younger people try to live in the bigger cities.

The society is changing quite a bit, though, due to very high illegal immigration (Italy is just a short boat ride away) there are much more ‘integration’ problems than when I was growing up: divorce is becoming endemic (while growing up NONE of my friends/classmates’ parents were divorced, now divorce is at 50% more or less) and there is a huge problem looming with the pension situation, given that the population is aging quite rapidly (Italy would be shrinking quite fast if it wasn’t for the immigration going on, I think the national average is what, 1.2 kids or something).

This is due to, again, cost of living: apartments in Milan (not in the ‘nice’ areas either) routinely go for several hundred thousand dollars (if it’s a nice area be prepared to go over a million easily, esp. if it’s over 1000sqf), and to rent a small 1-bedroom you can expect to be paying easily over $500 (which might not seem too much, but take into account that salaries in Italy are half or a third of what they are here).

Anyways this is getting long, Italy is a beautiful country, you can’t beat the art, the culture and (in some areas) the people and the climate (and getting August off to go on vacation and a week of at Christmas), but it ain’t cheap to live there, and if you’re starting from scratch it’s even harder. Feel free to PM me if you have any more specific questions obviously.

20

“…the possibility of living simpler, quieter lives.”

What is it about where you live now that prevents this? Seems it requires a lifestyle change rather than a geographical one.

I’m having similar discussions with my wife. We used to live carefree, rock climbing every day, live on $1,000/month. Now we have good jobs, a house, money, and we’re more stressed and unhappy than before. I sympathize with your dilemma.

21

Check out a book called “One Year Off”, by David Elliot Cohen

It’s a quick read about a guy, his wife, and 3 kids who sell or pack everything up and travel for a year. It’s rather entertaining and insightful.

Here’s an amazon.com link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1885211651/ref=pd_sxp_f/103-5180767-6907003?v=glance&s=books

Good luck

22

Is there any reason you have to move to Italy to break out of the “life of quiet desperation” and do the things you dream about doing?

Adventure, yes. Happiness? I think you have to be able to find that wherever you are. That comes from within.

I’m sure there are Italians leading lives of quiet desperation too.

23

Every day of my life. The wife and I LOVE Italy. Someday, when I’m rich, we’ll move there… mmmmmm… Italy…

24

You’ve got to be realistic and no matter where in the world you wish to go. Look at it thru the eyes of a local and not try to romaticize as a tourist. I love Cuba. Everytime I go there the music, culture, language, rum, people and scuba diving are amazing. Can’t wait to go back again. However, would I really want to be there forever on native wages and under a totalitarian governement. Probably not.

Look at it this way - check it out and if it doesn’t pan out, at least you’ve got the option of returning home and will have had a wonderful experience that you’ll never regret or forget.