We hear this all the time, but isn’t it backwards? Equipment can’t make you faster because it doesn’t generate energy. However, it can slow you down less than bad equipment by wasting less of what we put in. We train the engine and equipment should slow it down as little as possible.
When it comes to the next%, for example, why should it be banned? It doesn’t propel athletes, just slows them down less than older tech that wastes a bunch of energy to heat during foam compression and relaxation.
Also makes me wonder what someone like Frodeno could do with every piece of equipment optimized and in perfect conditions. Wetsuit salt water swim. Think P5-6 with USE bars, VeloVetta shoes, every TriRig/D2Z/AeroCoach/ViewSpeed trick, Huub suit, etc. Run in AlphaFly shoes. Could he go 7:30? 7:25? Would love to see him in an event like INEOS 1:59, minus the drafting.
Also makes me wonder what someone like Frodeno could do with every piece of equipment optimized and in perfect conditions. Wetsuit salt water swim. Think P5-6 with USE bars, VeloVetta shoes, every TriRig/D2Z/AeroCoach/ViewSpeed trick, Huub suit, etc. Run in AlphaFly shoes. Could he go 7:30? 7:25? Would love to see him in an event like INEOS 1:59, minus the drafting.
I’d actually suggest they go all in on the INEOS pathway…no rules, just see how fast you can go. Full drafting in everything, with the best equipment. Fastest swimmers that he can draft off of, fittest bikers he can sit on, and then runners who can “pull him” along like INEOS did.
I’d actually suggest they go all in on the INEOS pathway…no rules, just see how fast you can go. Full drafting in everything, with the best equipment. Fastest swimmers that he can draft off of, fittest bikers he can sit on, and then runners who can “pull him” along like INEOS did.
“No rules” still generally involves an arbitrary set of rules. Like, what is “the best equipment”, if we’re not defining it per the current ruleset? For instance, if you decide that bicycle posture and fairing rules are stupid, the speeds of a dude in a velomobile are going to be so astronomically different from the same dude on a Tri bike that the results will look totally meaningless.
That is essentially what the INEOS project has done. It’s meaningless to set a time when it goes against “accepted” practices of your sport.
But I wouldn’t mind seeing what the IM guys could do with no “drafting” rules on the best “accepted” triathlon gear. I’m not talking about letting them use E-Bikes w spaceship designed fairings. I’m saying let them use the best tri equipment but let them draft. That’s my “no rules” comment.
That’s closer to INEOS, and both still would be meaningless results.
That is essentially what the INEOS project has done. It’s meaningless to set a time when it goes against “accepted” practices of your sport.
I didn’t mean “meaningless” as in “obviously not an official record.” I meant “meaningless” as in the numbers would be so astronomically different from what people are used to that it will be hard to have any kind of opinion on them. Like, you’d say “huh weird” instead of “whoa that’s interesting.” The INEOS marathon was less than 2% faster than the “official” marathon record; on a flat course, a faired recumbent can be over 50% faster than anything that people compete on in mainstream bicycle racing. (And I’m not talking about e-bikes.)
I’m saying let them use the best tri equipment but let them draft.
Ah.
But the reality is even INEOS project with only a 2% difference is beyond reality at this current time. They did many things that aren’t accepted practices. Of course it’s “cool” to finally have someone break 2hrs, but then again when you set the rules and deck, it’s not really much you can take away. As I said…you mean to tell me you need the greatest shoe, you need specific “fresh” pacers, and you need the most specific weather and course…to set the “record” (ETA: quotations around record as this was applauded around the world as the 1st to break 2, so unofficially the record).
That’s why I’ve said if we really wanted to see what tri guys could do, simply allow them to draft with the equipment they have today. That would be basically what INEOS did.
In Frankfurt this year someone shouted “your helmet looks ridiculous, Frodo!”. Didn’t think much of it at the time, but if what you say is true, I guess it struck a Frodo nerve
Also makes me wonder what someone like Frodeno could do with every piece of equipment optimized and in perfect conditions. Wetsuit salt water swim. Think P5-6 with USE bars, VeloVetta shoes, every TriRig/D2Z/AeroCoach/ViewSpeed trick, Huub suit, etc. Run in AlphaFly shoes. Could he go 7:30? 7:25? Would love to see him in an event like INEOS 1:59, minus the drafting.
I’d actually suggest they go all in on the INEOS pathway…no rules, just see how fast you can go. Full drafting in everything, with the best equipment. Fastest swimmers that he can draft off of, fittest bikers he can sit on, and then runners who can “pull him” along like INEOS did.
Let it be in a flooded fast flowing river downstream too.
And then a downhill bike course.
And downhill run.
Just to make it REALLY meaningless.
Oh… and maybe make the course a bit short - Iromnan often do that anyway.
Didn’t Ineos do basically that and it’s been applauded? Did the distance even get certified?
No that’s not what they did. Even certified marathons have pacers. The only difference between the Ineos race and a regular marathon was that pacers could rotate back in. Everything else is the same as something you’d see in Berlin. You’re stretching how much aid he had. It’s a record run so of course he will use the best shoes… I’m surprised he isn’t wearing an aero suit tbh, at those speeds.
In any case, I’m wondering about something comparable to INEOS minus the drafting for the hypothetical Frodeno case, except maybe the swim since that is a realistic race case.
So Nike abandons running for years then comes back and triples the price of shoes?
When did they abandon? Their first shoes were running shoes and they’ve always been present. The Pegasus has always been around and popular as far as I can remember back. They’ve added an expensive shoe that’s 65% more expensive than the top of line for other brands (250 vs 150), but there hasn’t been a significant price increase for their standard models. The way %s are selling, they’re worth at least that price.
Frodeno spent a full day in the wind tunnel testing helmets. Just helmets. A full day.
Yes, I know he does a lot of testing but he is still tied to sponsors. Don’t you think a P5-6 or P4 is faster than a Canyon? VeloVetta with ViewSpeed mods faster than Bont? HED/Enve/Aeox possibly faster than Zipp? TriRig skewers faster than regular ones? Huub probably faster than 2XU?
Then there’s the ideal condition/course piece. There would be people who don’t like that but it would be neat to see a baseline for what is possible if everything is perfect.
Don’t forget the pre selected days to allow for best weather
-laser guided pacing instruction for him and the pacers.
They did a whole hell of a lot of “aids†to get that time. This was the essential “lab experiment†vs real world applications.
If your trying to apply that to triathlon I would put them in a swim venue to draft and use least amount of energy which is likely wetsuit salt water (no not talking about aided downhill swims) and then legally draft off like 8 person “pelotonâ€. That way you could have enough people to rotate through and have the athlete just sitting in the entire time. IE- Lange ‘17/‘18 in Kona. Then unleash a run. Would be great to have 2-3 of them just get him to 15km in the run or later.
That would be the ideal “legal†triathlon accepted pathway.
Don’t forget the pre selected days to allow for best weather
-laser guided pacing instruction for him and the pacers.
They did a whole hell of a lot of “aids†to get that time. This was the essential “lab experiment†vs real world applications.
If your trying to apply that to triathlon I would put them in a swim venue to draft and use least amount of energy which is likely wetsuit salt water (no not talking about aided downhill swims) and then legally draft off like 8 person “pelotonâ€. That way you could have enough people to rotate through and have the athlete just sitting in the entire time. IE- Lange ‘17/‘18 in Kona. Then unleash a run. Would be great to have 2-3 of them just get him to 15km in the run or later.
That would be the ideal “legal†triathlon accepted pathway.
I disagree with your first point. A laser on the ground doesn’t help anyone run faster, just helps pacing. Perfect weather can happen at a regular race. A lot was done tho make sure it was perfect day, but beside drafting fresh pacers, none of them helped him run faster/harder. Lasers and weather just give him a chance to reach his very real potential. Imo, here “aid” is something that will propel him beyond his own abilities, such as drafting, downhill, tailwind etc.
Yes the Lange '17/'18 case would be fine as long as the 8 person group is using IM spacing between them. Would love to see such an experiment at an oval racetrack or freshly paved Autobahn.
