let’s say i’m trying to figure out the protocols for an anti-doping “self test” designed for the MOPers who’ll never endanger the podium and therefore never despoil a pee bottle, yet who want the knowledge that they’re either racing in accordance with or against the rules.
let’s take testosterone for example. let’s pretend i’m 65 and i’m hypogonadal. i understand that as many as 1 in 5 of those in my age group and above are just like me. my testosterone is 150 ng/dL. i’m in danger of osteoporosis and, in fact, at least one study has shown that i’m at least half again as likely to die as those who’re not low in testosterone. so i’ve got my health to think of, and i’ve also got my honor to consider: i’m not going to toe the starting line knowing that i’m not playing by the rules.
the questions are:
what are the *real *numbers upon which sport can rely as to what is hypogonadal versus what is not? 200? 300? what is the declination line adjusted for age? 300 minus 1% per year after the age of 30? after 40? 1.5%? what is the top end of health, so that i’m not hypergonadal? 800? 1200? i need to know this because i need to know what midline is, that is, how much i can up my testosterone without cheating.
what therapy do you have me on? injection? patch? gel? just a pinch between my check & gum?
WADA lists these etiologies: Primary hypogonadism (e.g. Klinefelter syndrome, bilateral anorchia, cryptorchidism, Leydig cell aplasia, male Turner syndrome, Noonan’s syndrome, congenital adrenal hyperplasia). Or secondary hypogonadism (e.g. panhypopituitarism, idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, Kallmann’s syndrome, constitutional delay of puberty, LH deficiency, Prader Willi syndrome). if i’m hypogonadal, is it pretty simple to figure out the etiology?
WADA says only an endocrinologist or a specialist in internal medicine can interpret the bioassays they require as proof necessary to justify a TUE. is that a reasonable requirement? is the doctor who gives me my DEXA tests likely to come from these specialties? if not, is he qualified to administer my testosterone regimen?
Normal is 300-900, from what I remember. I assume 900 is also the cutoff for sports, but I’ve never checked. Androgel is a new product that is a gel used once a day to increase testosterone. The normal amount of testosterone for men decreases with age. So you would probably be best from 400-600, but everything above 300 is therapeutic. Once you start therapy your doc will test you to titrate your dose (and you’ll know your levels. They should level out in 4 weeks or so). Your primary care doc can prescribe it and monitor you no prob. 150 is definitely in the range where you should be treated.
I just spent an hour last week listening to the Androgel rep. He bought us lunch.
It’s borderline low. Not sure if a doc would treat 275 if asymptomatic since it is so close to the 300 cutoff. If you are having any hormone specific problems (taken any cialis lately?), then treatment would be warrented. Or excessive fatigue. But given your level of competitiveness and the fact that you aren’t that low, I wouldn’t mess with it. But I’m not an MD yet, so it’s best to ask your doc.
“Not sure if a doc would treat 275 if asymptomatic since it is so close to the 300 cutoff.”
two things to consider, according to WADA. first, low-normal will not get you a TUE. second, you can’t fall below normal as a result of your training, and expect to get a TUE. to me, that’s the tough one. are you 175 normally? or did your overtraining make you that way? how do you demonstrate that?
I just spent an hour last week listening to the Androgel rep. He bought us lunch.
Ok - so I spent a few extra brain cells trying to figure that statement out…it just didn’t make sens to me…so I gave up and continued reading. THEN I found this post and it explained everything…
But I’m not an MD yet.
When you are, you’ll listen to the rep for 30 seconds, if at all.
I’m sure you’ll like/agree with my posts about this one about as much as my cardiology views (albeit I know a less about this one…).
1 out of 5 are abnormal in your age group? That seems weird - 20% are too low? How do they define normal? How do they know that 1 in 5 don’t just run lower than average vs. a real medical problem…
Any (decent) studies that show benefit if you treat low testosterone?
Dave
P.s. my dad always told me that swimming/cycling lower testosterone while running raises it…he’s always been quite biased (maybe for a good reason and maybe he’s just nutty) against all non running/walking sports though…
I have never been tested before. I had to ask to even get tested this time.
So, I asked the doc about it and he said I was fine. Am tired a lot, so no idea if this is just from the training.
This is why I am reading these threads so closely, and ask what is “normal” since I am clearly not super super low,
but, with within what some say is normal.
I hope you get some luck with answers. I will try to ask Skip about it when I see him in germany.
I expect this will be a talking point with folks also, so will see if I can get anymore ideas.
But, this general topic of what can folks do legally as we get older is something I really really think
out sport needs to deal with since are groups spends more money that any other, I think.
The doc I’m working with was actually really interested in the product. New guidelines just came out to test men with Type II DM for testosterone levels. Turns out, many have ED not because of vascular/neuropathic disease, but because of hypogonadism.
Anywhoo, the doc is treating several people with injections and it’s painfully inconvenient and you get a lot of testosterone variability within the month.
As a student, I find you can learn a TON from drug reps if you take the time and get a knowledgable one (there are a few out there). And, we get free lunch 3 days per week. I’m not complaining…
It’s taken me awhile to figure out why you’re making this so complicated. I wish you would have been more open and clear about your position at the outset, it would have saved me a lot of time and confusion.
Why not just come right out and say that you want to be allowed to take PEDs to treat an asymptomatic “condition”? That’s what you want, after all- you want to juice, but legally.
Nice link - I should have read it first before responding to slowman…
I think 1 major problem is that 90% of people have half the symptoms on table 1 for 1 reason or another…couple that with a lowish testosterone and you need tx???
I’m buying stock in Androgel now. I’ll be opening an antiaging clinic soon…
“Why not just come right out and say that you want to be allowed to take PEDs to treat an asymptomatic “condition”? That’s what you want, after all- you want to juice, but legally.”
when i said "i’m " i meant suppose i’m symptomatic. afaik my testosterone is fine. i don’t need or intend to medicate, legally or illegally. i recommend you don’t follow this thread, because you’re spending way too much time trying to figure out my nefarious motives.
when i said "i’m " i meant suppose i’m symptomatic.
Then get treatment, and get a TUE. If one actually has symptoms of something, they have a condition that can be treated under the current rules. There is no complicated problem to solve, except maybe to clarify that USADA will, in fact, grant TUEs to age groupers. You certainly don’t need to go on some snipe hunt for an allowable level of testosterone.
i recommend you don’t follow this thread, because you’re spending way too much time trying to figure out my nefarious motives.
No such luck, I’m afraid. I already figured out your nefarious motives. Now I’m going to spend some time making sure that they’re brought out into the daylight. The way you’ve gone about this endeavor is shameful, Dan, and it disappoints me. I don’t always agree with you on these kinds of issues, but up until now I’ve been able to respect the fact that you operated in an above board fashion. On this issue, you’ve been egregiously underhanded about the whole thing- first creating the idea that there’s some terribly complicated ethical dilemna involved, then refusing to cop to your real motives in plain language.
Again, there is nothing wrong with the rules currently, except in that there’s confusion as to whether or not the governing body will apply them to age groupers. The only necessary solution is to ensure that the governing body actually will apply the rules to age groupers. Anything else is a sham.
i (standing in for a guy who need treatment) would love to. but unless i’m at a natl or intl level, USADA doesn’t want my application for a TUE. if they change their tune, then there’s no issue. but they have to decide to change their policy, and perhaps hire more people.
“I already figured out your nefarious motives. Now I’m going to spend some time making sure that they’re brought out into the daylight. The way you’ve gone about this endeavor is shameful, Dan”
would you please not stalk me from thread to thread? unless you’re an endocrinologist, that is, and you’d like to help. otherwise, really, i’m serious, stop stalking me.
**but unless i’m at a natl or intl level, USADA doesn’t want my application for a TUE. if they change their tune, then there’s no issue. but they have to decide to change their policy, and perhaps hire more people. **
And why aren’t you lobbying for that incredibly simple change? And why are you, instead, lobbying for some obviously convoluted solution that begs for abuse?
**really, i’m serious, stop stalking me. **
Funny. I wonder if any of the board members of the USAT have accused you of stalking them in the past.
But hey, it’s your forum, right? You have the privilege of squashing dissent, I suppose. You asking me to leave?
“And why aren’t you lobbying for that incredibly simple change?”
is it possible you are not as good at divining my motives as you thought you were?
“But hey, it’s your forum, right? You have the privilege of squashing dissent, I suppose. You asking me to leave?”
if i wanted you gone you wouldn’t be posting right now. if you want to dissent, fine, i’d rather you start another thread and do so, or post your dissent in a thread that invites commentary. this one invites facts not in my possession from those in medicine. i’d prefer you didn’t move from thread to thread hijacking each (on every possible theme), only to tell me what a demon i am (on every possible theme).
i’m looking for other opinions, thanks for yours.