Mr. Stern, or any other knowlegeable swim coaches, I have swim technique question regarding hand entry and the catch.
After playing around with some different techniques, I have noticed that after my initial hand entry and am moving it forward, if I then gradually bring my hand back to the surface (imagine your fingertips almost coming back out of the water), my stroke count drops and I get a little more efficient form one end of the pool to another. I am assuming this is because I’m grabbing more water.
Is this a good thing or bad thing??? I thought I read once in TI that Alexander Popov’s hand did come back out of the water on his catch? But I’ve also been reading about the phenomenon of the “deep catch”, I would consider this a “shallow” catch. Of course, this is exaggerated when I’m warming up and seeing how few strokes I can take.
Foo,
You caught me at my country house on the computer. it is difficult to get away from it. i hide it in the basement.
You are correct. My hand enters the water at a sevre angle then extends to the surface. I am not sure whether it is right or wrong but it feels so good.
DougStern
Comparing to Popov may not be the best thing for a triathlete to do. Sprinters, which Popov most certainly is, have a different stroke than distance swimmers. If you watch close, a sprinter almost immediately pops the elbow up and starts the pull back towards the hip (Popov may be different, I haven’t watched him closely). This results in a much faster turn over and high power output, but comes at the cost of higher strength and energy requirement. A D swimmer will have a much longer catch phase, almost as if they are gliding out in front of their stroke. This effectively lengthens the stroke and results in higher efficiency, but comes at the cost of top end speed. In car terms, the sprinters runs at very hi RPM with low gear ratios for high torque and low fuel mileage. The D swimmer runs a lower RPM in overdrive and high fuel mileage.
Your hand lifting at the end of your stroke is nothing more than the final extension from your shoulder roll and your hand “plane-ing” out as it recovers from entry. In effect you are setting up your catch. You may also notice that during this portion of your stroke a good deal of the air that you drag into the water with entry is lost, which is also a good thing.
I call that move the “STOP! in the naaaame of loooove.” I suppose theoretically it can be ok if you are not causing extra resistance. I thin kit is much more likely that you are adding resistance and by moving toward the edge of your range of motion, exposing yourself to injury.
There’s a fine line between extending straight forward and extending back toward the surface.
It depends on the distance swimmer. What seem to be most of the elite women these days, and the occasional elite guy like Dave Davies go for a higher cadence/lower power per stroke freestyle.
Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing for a triathlon swimmer since they aren’t likely to be hard six beat kickers like Ian Thorpe and Larsen Jensen are.
I’m a little confused. If your hand moves back up to the surface, and you then presumably start your pull from there (as opposed to letting it glide down to the 45-degree angle before pulling that my TI-inspired coach believes in), don’t you put a lot of extra pressure on your shoulders running the risk of injury?
I’m a little confused. If your hand moves back up to the surface, and you then presumably start your pull from there (as opposed to letting it glide down to the 45-degree angle before pulling that my TI-inspired coach believes in), don’t you put a lot of extra pressure on your shoulders running the risk of injury?
If your hand is at the surface, you are indeed setting yourself up for (potential) shoulder woes. That’s an extremely delicate position from which to begin a pull, or any other motion with force. Logic says that your arm should be parallel to your body line, or about 6-9" below the surface.
I think what you meant was that you let your hand glide down (not your arm), to catch water, keeping the elbow up. Then you pull straight back from there.
you want to catch out in front and high. If your hand is at a 45 down angle then you have essentially lost much of your stroke. Your catching at a point when most swimmes are in a high elbow position pulling themselves forward. Point your hand to the ceiling then stretch rotating your body. Then catch from there…or you can put your hand out in front with a straight arm at a 45 degree angle and actch from there. There will be a big difference in how long you are, how much water you can pull and where your stroke effectively starts.
FWIW, I enter, then swoop my hand up just a bit before catching.
ok one thing about popov is taht he’s a 50 meter sprinter so his stroke technique is really built for powerful and fast strokes. Try doing strokes as if you were curling your arm around the lanerope wheel. your arm should be really extended but with a small arch at the elbow. When in the water try swimming like this but not just bringing your arm back to your side and starting again, but try and pull the arm back while gradually straightening it out to complete the stroke.
Folks - thanks for the feedback, it’s certainly creating some interesting discussion. This gives me and maybe some other to think about and expirment with. Obviously I wasn’t trying to compare myself to Popov, but merely using him as an example for the stroke technique I’ve been using - I do believe his hand almost came back out of the water upon entry…and yes Doug you’re correct he does have one of the lowest stroke counts ever.
SAC - to answer your question my guess is the catch begins the moment you’re hand enters the water, so the question is do you immediately begin to pull down and back “deep catch” or extend out and up a little?
No pun intended, but there may be something to different strokes for different folks when it comes to technique. Different body types and structures allow probably allow for small differences in strokes (to achieve optimal efficiency).
Where do you think the catch is?
SAC - to answer your question my guess is the catch begins the moment you’re hand enters the water, so the question is do you immediately begin to pull down and back “deep catch” or extend out and up a little?
Think about that for a moment - how can the catch start the moment your hand enters the water. It can’t. Your hand enters the water, you roll and extend that arm and then start the catch.
You need to have that basic understanding before asking about technicalities to do with the catch.
Your coach is misinformed. If your arm drifts downward it usually crosses the midline of your body as so many TI swimmers do. The catch is started at the surface and is done softly as not to injure your shoulders.
DougStern
Kevin,
You are right. It is a matter of degree. My fingers enter and go down about two inches and tehn the tips of my fingers move toward the surfaace of the water. I never lead with the heel of my hand to STOP the flow of water.
DougStern
Popov has one of the lowest stroke counts of any swimmer be it sprinter or distance swimmer.
DougStern
Like i said I have not watched popov closely, so I can’t disagree with you at all. I was generalizing about sprinters and distances swimmers. For every Popov type sprinter there are 10-20 Gary Hall Jr type strokes. And I have yet to see a Gary hall Jr type stroke in an elite lever D event.
It looks “immediate” because sprinters turn over so fast. But you are correct that watching swimmers at that level can be confusing for MOP distance swimmers. Popov (and most top swimmers) use far less bocy roll than triathletes, in part because of their superior flexibility. They raise their shoulders *without *doing the TI body roll thing.
So Popov and the rest get more extension before hand entry.
My strategy for better catch and lower stroke count is to extend and reach up, with the thumb slightly turned down, counter-rotatate the shoulder and press out so that the hand and arm swing out about 20º. Seen from above (taking body roll into account) my hand moves out about two to three inches, putting the shoulder and elbow in proper position to achieve a vertical catch.
This is important, because the typical MOP swimmer crosses his or her hands well over the center line, creating an alligator effect (weaving) and wasting a great deal of energy and motion. It is also physically impossible to achieve a vertical catch with your are extended so that your hand is above your head.
Most swimmers have a hard time feeling this, because of the zero-gravity nature of the swimming experience.