I’ve heard/read that some of the pro’s do double run days (long run, followed by short run later in the day) and I wondered about the average AG’er experience in incorporating them into their training. Did you see benefit? If so, what frequency did you do them? was it always backing up your long run? Was it always at recovery pace?
I ask because today I found myself doing two runs. A short 20 minute transition run in the morning, followed by a 10 mile run at lunch. Obviously, not following the long run/short run approach, but it got me thinking about the value of trying to do this more often. I was fatigued on the second run, but certainly not as a result of the transition run - rather the ride before it.
Anyway, there is a question in all this (somewhere) - mostly I’m just interested in hearing about others experiences with this approach - and if it’s worthwhile to consider as a long-term training protocol. Or, is it a way to pad the mileage total?
it’s probably worth noting that I’ve got a decent run base, recovery easily, rarely (very) suffer a running related injury, and can handle high-volume
If you are trying to do any kind of decent run volume then doing two runs a day reduces the wear and tear a bit. I find running past 1:45 tends to feel a little worse than running 1:15 in the morning and 30 later in the day. Lydiard believed there was value in an running as long as 15 minutes and if you added a 15 minute run to your evening commute/routine then by the end of the week you have another 90 minutes of running.
I don’t really think about doing run/bike/run training per se because every day I do some sort of run/bike combination, often twice. All those runs add up and if someone tries to tell you they are junk miles then ask them to define “junk miles”. You are training aerobically for a largely aerobic sport. It applies whether you do sprints or IM.
I don’t have any expertise about the double runs but you might as well try them out and see how it works for you.
I would define “junk miles” as in-efficient training. If the amount of fitness gained / time was a ratio, then junk miles would have a lower comparable ratio. For example: If you did a great workout, then ate 10 bags of skittles for dinner… or… didn’t sleep that night and allow your body to rest. You put in the time but aren’t getting anything out of it. Something is better than nothing, but maybe more later is better than less now. Or maybe I don’t know what I am talking about. Who knows.
I’ve done it myself during run focus periods but rarely during overall tri training. If you’re running 5 times in a week, I would think it a better use of time to space the runs out, in general. Now you get upwards of 60 miles and/or 6 runs and it can be easier to double up.
i do the long run in the am (right now it’s 230 for IM AZ) and 45 - 1 hour at night…
i have been prone to injury and this is my coaches way of getting in the mileage without so much wear and tear.
i like it. i find the evening run is tough at first but by the end, my legs feel much better for it.
up until now, it has been at recovery pace. now, i am descending every 10 minutes until i’m running at half pace for the last 10. much harder than just a recovery run… we’ll see how that goes.
I agree with a lot that has been written so far. Another time where I have found double runs to be really useful is when I’m traveling. I usually can’t ride or swim so I try to make work trips big run volume weeks.
1 hour in the morning, 45 min in the evening, repeat. It really helps keep me from getting bored too.
In my Ironman buildup I use the double to get a second “long run day” per week, usually on Thursday…AM 80-90 minute run+ bike commute to work…at lunch time another 40-50 min run…evening, bike commute home to shake out the legs…it ends up being a 2:00 - 2:20 day of running in addition to a weekend long run, but it does not feel like I did that much running the next day.
Any thoughts on this for a post-injury rebuild? I’m coming off a fully ruptured achillies and can only do about 30 min on a treadmill at a time.
But what if I can do a morning and evening 20 min sessions? Right now, I’m really looking to just rebuild the muscles in my foot and lower leg. Those have been the least to come back. I run at a recovery pace on an incline.
John, I do double run days fairly often. As long as I’m paying attention to stretching my calves I’m usually good to go. Most common for me is 1 hour in the morning and 1 hour after work. I imagine later this spring and summer I’ll probably be doing some 2 hour/1 hour days. Biking after work gets boring so I find that, almost always, I look forward to another run in the pm vs. a ride. Good luck!
All - thanks for the input. I definitely think it’s something I experiment with a bit more…but, probably not before IMAZ. I’m thinking that since I only have ~8 weeks between IMAZ and IM France, that it might be a good way to get volume in, without taxing my body too much.
I’ve just come off a 5 week period where I had run weeks of 60+, 60+ and 76 miles - and I found that I really enjoyed and responded well to putting in lots of run miles (at the expense of swimming ) but found it too time consuming as I was only running once per day. If I double up, it might help me to get in a swim/run in the AM and a run in the PM. Better balance between sports, and still getting the bigger run volume
interesting that you mention your calves, as that is the one area that I have to take very good care of in order to keep running. I ALWAYS have tight calves, so it’s a good reminded to be doubly conscious of it should I start doing more double runs.
It’s almost always my left calf and ankle area. When they act up I know it’s time to stretch more and use the TP Massage Ball. 76 miles? Nice! So, you’re shooting for a sub 9:15 at AZ, right?
Hah! what did Gordo used to refer to that as on his site? Goal inflation?
I’ll take 9:59:59.99 - but, man o’ man, will I be upset if I come in at 10:00:00!
The 76 miles was in prep for that ultra that I put on my calendar every year - but fail to do. Surprisingly, it wasn’t all bad when you consider that it came on top of huge bike volume. That’s what training camps are for right? all told, over the 9 days, I racked up 642 miles of biking, and 91 of running. Now, it’s time to back it up, then recover, and then see what happens at IMAZ.
When I was gearing up for the Triple T I did a 40k ride 10k run in the morning and then the same at night and felt it REALLY helped significantly for that particular race.
I then went long the next day to simulate having to run a half marry the next day after those two races.
A friend of mine who is a phenomenal runner (at age 51) runs twice daily 2-3x / week during his build. But he also ensures he recovers really well with lots of rest, great food and weekly massage/yoga/stretching.
If you can handle it, i say go for it.
I remember I was at a party with a PR 2:17 marathon time guy and we were talking about his training. He said when he’s in the groove, it not bad being a professional athlete, just an hour run in the morning and and hour run in the evening (each run was 10 miles). Getting back to the point, he was very on board with the two a days - E
i do them in my ironman specific prep phase and in fact did my first one for IMAZ today (perhaps a little behind schedule!). Typically i build up to a peak of 2:30 before work and 45mins at lunchtime and run as fast as i feel in the second run. More often than not this is about ironman goal pace and my legs generally still feel fairly well warmed up from the end of the morning run so have never found it to be particularly hard going.
thanks…so if I can interpret, you are giving yourself about 4-5 hours between the two runs?
I’m going to give it a shot on my next long-run day (Sunday), just to see how it feels.
If the second run is at IM pace, what pace - if you don’t mind me asking - are you running the 2:30 at? what is the differential between the two runs?
Just trying to figure out how to structure this…especially as I do all of my long runs well under what I typically run in an IM (I know, that’s a sign of something else. I’m already working on that )
) but found it too time consuming as I was only running once per day. If I double up, it might help me to get in a swim/run in the AM and a run in the PM. Better balance between sports, and still getting the bigger run volume