What would Jesus do??? hmmmmmmmmmmmm…according to Pat Robertson on his “Christian” TV network yesterday the US should use covert means to assasinate the democratically elected President of the country of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez.
Does anyone here think Jesus wants Chavez “taken out”???..to use the Revd. Robertson’s terminology.
Wingnut.
What sort of conditions do you think have to prevail here for Pat Robertson to think that saying something like this is perfectly reasonable or for that matter, a “Christian” thing to be advocating?
Wingnut.
I hope you mean Pat, not Matt…
What’s to be discussed here?
Should PR be saying that? No.
Is PR opinions suppossed to be saying more than they are about either himself, Christians, or Christianity?
I must admit, other than knowing he hosts (or used to host) the 700 club, I don’t know much about PR.
I think you might be surprised at how many people think what PR says, either Chavez should be whacked, or that the biggest threat to this country is activist judges (as opposed to Al Qaeda), is perfectly reasonable.
And unfortunately, he is a man of some influence, and the founder of the Christian Coalition, so I think it does it make it newsworthy.
he founded the Christian Coalition and has the biggest “Christian” broadcasting network in the world. His views are accepted as gospel by millions of Americans.
If you’re not afraid of this man, you should be.
I had no idea he was that “Big”.
I guess I am lucky that I don’t get into the divisions of christianity (catholocism, lutherans, baptists, methodists, etc) or who the “leaders are”. I have to spend too much effort making sure I am doing what I am suppossed to be doing on a daily basis. In terms of Christian TV, I’ll watch Joel Osteen if I’m flipping through the channels, but even then 2 young kids make it certain that I will never again be able to watch 30 minutes of TV uninterrupted. That’s a good thing.
Pat Robertson’s comments got me thinking. I agree that there are, unfortunately, many people who listen to this imbecile, but it is quite clear that he is not “Christian.” Particularly when he calls for assasination, or displays hatred or disdain for other groups.
Isn’t it also “un-Christian” to support the War in Iraq? Or any war, for that matter? Didn’t Jesus teach to love thy neighbor, and turn the other cheek when confronted with hatred and violence? To not respond in-kind, but rather with love?
PR doesn’t speak for Jesus.
He’s a whack job…
For the record, I don’t think of things in terms of “Christian and non-Christian,” and I’m not a Christian. But it always seems to be (some) Christians, and in the case of Robertson, a very vocal and influential “Christian,” who parse things this way - and, in my view, incorrectly. Many that loudly proclaim their support for the Iraq war, and are very judgmental toward other groups, also claim to be Christian, but it seems their actions and statements are totally contradictory to Christ.
Personally, I agree that WWII was a noble effort on our part, but I’d be curious what Jesus would say about it. Is defensive war OK, but not offensive? If so, where is the line drawn? And where in Jesus’ teachings can this be found? Not the Apostles, but Jesus himself?
I’m a Christian and support the war in Iraq. I honestly don’t see the conflict. I see the action as saving lives…which is what Jesus preached.
How is the action saving lives? Be specific, please.
Under Hussein, hundreds of thousands of civilians were murdered. Many more tortured and imprisoned.
Hussein is no longer in power.
We’re saving lives.
Pat Robertson’s comments got me thinking. I agree that there are, unfortunately, many people who listen to this imbecile, but it is quite clear that he is not “Christian.” Particularly when he calls for assasination, or displays hatred or disdain for other groups.
Isn’t it also “un-Christian” to support the War in Iraq? Or any war, for that matter? Didn’t Jesus teach to love thy neighbor, and turn the other cheek when confronted with hatred and violence? To not respond in-kind, but rather with love?
As is the case with most atheists or agnostics you take one famous quote by Jesus and choose to forget about the bible in its entirity. Just because Pat Robertson has made some very “un Christian” comments you choose to broad brush stroke all Christians. If you understood the beauty of Christianity you would know that Pat Robertson is a man, flawed and with sin. He is not Jesus. As a Christian I do not follow the words of man but of Jesus and God. It is indeed sad PR seems to have gone off the deep end with this. It is not very Christian like at all. As for your question about turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbor below is some information we use to work with Christian soldiers when they feel torn between their duty as a soldier and a Christian.
What Does The Bible Say About War? by Betty Miller The Bible records many wars throughout its pages. If fact, many of these wars document the accuracy of the Bible as archeology has uncovered artifacts with data that verifies the records of them exactly as recorded in Holy Script. In this article we want to examine why God has allowed wars and what the Bible says about the role of soldiers and how they can reconcile taking the lives of other humans in that role. When God created the earth and put man upon it, He pronounced that it was all good until men sinned and fell from that estate. Because mankind was given a free will and they could choose to obey God or do evil, we now live in an environment where evil men and good men are at war. God hates war; however, it is necessary to maintain order in the earth and overcome those who would like to destroy good. In fact, the first war ever recorded was the war in heaven where Satan and his evil angels fought against God and his angels. We know this war was won by God through Christ. Revelation 12:7-11:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. God Sanctioned Government Authorities to Enforce Laws We are now watching as the government in the USA has begun major changes in our national affairs in order to prevent future terrorist attacks after the invasion of the terrorists on September 11, 2001. Increased security measures in all levels of our nation’s operations have been instigated. The USA has gone on the offensive to root out terrorists nationally and abroad. President Bush has declared war on terrorism. He has launched a world wide coalition, as other nations are joining in this war. We are all facing changes in our lives. The whole world is experiencing war, or is under the threat of war, with ominous weapons looming over all the people of the globe. The evil of war is discussed daily in the news with reports of possible attacks from nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, as well as conventional armaments. The Bible is not silent about this subject, as it warns us it will increase more and more as the time for Christ’s second coming approaches. Matthew 24:6-8:
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Some Christians are having difficulty with the actions of our government in the area of war as the heart of Christianity is to love our enemies, not destroy them. How do we reconcile this as Christians? We must understand that the Bible deals with the role of government differently than that of an individual Christian. Throughout the Bible, the main role of governments was to protect its people from threatening invaders and to maintain law and order within its borders. This was done by maintaining a military force. Those who would argue against our country’s military position, must also ask what our nation would be like without policemen and prisons. God set boundaries on mankind by establishing ruling authorities that would make and enforce the laws He gave. The purpose for this was because He knew unregenerate society, without any restraints, would seek to destroy good men. God’s desire is that all men would come to Him and live by His laws. However, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and broke His law, sin entered into the world and was passed down to all of mankind through Adam’s seed. God, in His love for mankind, made a way for men to come back to Him, through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus. Because Jesus lived free of sin and obeyed the law of God perfectly, He became the sin offering and died upon a cross, thus paying the price for all men’s sin. He then rose from the dead the third day showing that He indeed was the son of God. Now those who accept what Jesus did and repent of their sins can find their way through faith to be reconciled to God. This sacrifice covers and cleanses men even from the worst of sins including murder. Now, through Christ, even murderers can be forgiven and restored to a relationship with God so they can live forever with Him; however, they must repent and give their lives wholly to Christ. Where we find most of our problems with the military action of our government versus loving our enemies is that God’s law of justice for the taking of a life demands that life be taken; yet, God’s spiritual law of mercy and forgiveness grants that a murderer can be forgiven and restored. How can we reconcile this? We must understand that God instituted civil authorities to maintain order in the earth. God uses them to restrain evil and they should be obeyed for this purpose. An analogy would be like a family that had a son at home and who was given love, freedom and many privileges. However, one day the son committed an evil crime and was sent to jail. The rules he lived under at home while he was obedient must now be changed to the rules of the jail because of the son’s sin. The same is true with God. His will is to bless the earth and all those who obey and live in harmony; but for those who disobey, He had to set up separate rules so that the ones who are evil do not destroy the good. War is like that, as God uses civil authorities to maintain order in the earth. In the New Testament we see that even Jesus surrendered to the governing authorities because He was submitted to God. John 19:11: “Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above…” Romans 13:1-5 (RSV):
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. From these verses we see that governments can elect to bear the sword (go to war) to deal with evil men. Although the act of war is a harsh form of punishment upon evil invaders, the alternative is far worse – the destruction of innocent people by wicked aggressors. No soldier who is a Christian desires to kill another; however, the Lord Himself, did not chastise a Centurion soldier in the Bible in the matter of his occupation. On the contrary, the Lord commended this man for his understanding of authority and his great faith when he called upon the Lord to heal his servant. Our military men need our prayers and the protection of the Lord as they go to battle. This should be the work of the church – prayer for our men’s protection and prayer for our president and heads of state. Our critical words will not change things, but prayer will. We must pray that the war would end quickly so we can return to peace, and especially prayer for our enemies, that they might be saved. We can pray that good will come out of what Satan means for evil. Matthew 8:5-10:
5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 1 Timothy 2:1-6:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
Seems like he and the BTK killer would get along famously.
How many people have died as a direct result of our invasion?
How many people have died as a direct result of our invasion?
Too many…however, you need to break out which deaths and by whose hand?
I only take issue with the tense of your final statement. I agree that Hussain and his regime had to go, and that there were valid questions about the existence of WMD. These issues are now resolved.
My only question is this…
Had the case been made by the adminstration that Hussein had to go based on the fact that he brutalized and killed hundreds of thousand of people would that have gone over as reason enough for the invasion and ousting? Leave WMD’s out of the entire equation and instead present evidence and pictures of his prisons, mass graves and torture chambers.
My guess is it would have…