Gday everyone first post on slowtwitch so here goes,a local coach has told a fellow rider that he doesnt need a HRM now he has a powermeter.I thought you would use both to get maximum benefit.Is he right?
I did that for several years. Just started using one last year cuz i was curious. It’s just another indicator of intensity
HR is always a good metric to have. Now, the coach may structure his workouts based on power but that doesn’t mean you ditch HR.
I still use mine all the time with power but I do not pace by HR. I like to use it as a gauge of how training is going. Am I tired? Is this HR normal for this effort? That sort of thing. Or at the start of a ride in a race I might lower power a bit if my HR is sky high because of a fast transition. Or I might not, just depends on how I feel. I think it’s useful but not for pacing purposes.
I’m not riding with power yet, but when I get one, I already have a metric management spreadsheet put together to correlate my wattage output against my heart rate trend. The idea is that it will let me really hone in on training my threshold tolerance.
If you don’t measure it, you can’t manage it.
How are you going to account for things like drift?
Lord no.
Bounce the two off each other and you can see what effect temp, hills, wind, etc will do to your performance.
More data doesn’t really hurt, just ignore what you don’t care about and use it as a long term growth metric.
PM is by far the more useful and the coach could make a good case. But I still use both. I like to check the correlation between power and HR. For example, part of my trainer warmup is 5 minutes @ 200W. Typically my HR during that 5 min. is 115-200BPM. If it’s at 150BPM, I know something’s wrong - either I’m getting sick or am overreached.
I dont really know that much about the subject but most pro cyclists and triathletes you see with a PM still wear a HRM strap
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Power can’t tell you how much you’ve recovered, but HR can.
For example, I know that when I’m more fit, my HR rises a lot slower and falls quicker. You could structure a repeatable intervals workout where you measure that rate of change. So if for example you do repeats at 105% FTP for 5 minutes, how quickly does your HR drop when you drop to an easy spin at 60%? You can also use it to gauge your rest interval. Maybe you spin at a set power level maybe 65%? 70%? until you HR drops below a certain threshold. The more fit you are, the less rest you get and hte more repeats you can handle.
How are you going to account for things like drift?
Assuming you’re talking about HR drift over a ride, not talking about instrument drift (for which I have no plan to account for as of yet, since I have no system in place to measure the instrument drift yet, if any)…
That’s what I’m intending to study. I’ve postulated that there’s a “tipping point” in my power output, such that I can put out an average XXX watts for YYY time, but putting out XXX+5% watts would slam me into the ground. Not talking about the difference in a sprint and a long course here either, I’m talking about differences in 1/2MPH average. Maybe it’s the fact that I have less than 18mos in long course endurance work, so maybe the inflection point will naturally go away over time and training, but for now, my theory is to focus in on finding my maximum “idling speed” where only DRIFT happens, not an exponential rocket (now talking about a sprint).
In other words, I want to push the “drift” right up to the edge of becoming unsustainable, and correlating my power output to my HR is how I believe I can accomplish that. It “feels” as if there is a negative relationship, possibly an exponential link, relationship between my rate of drift and power output. I aim to determine the inflection point, then develop my training program around 1) improving my efficiency to lower my HR for the same output, and 2) improve my capacity to be able to tolerate a higher output without going off the rails, i.e. increasing that inflection point.
Definitely not!!! Power data is nice and all, but a lot of the real gems of working with power is gained from combining the two (HR and Power). For example, looking at power/HR decoupling is a very good way to assess aerobic fitness. Think of it this way - the power meter tells you how much you are putting out. It doesn’t tell you how hard you are having to push yourself to GET that power output, but your HRM can tell you that pretty well.
That’s what I’m intending to study. I’ve postulated that there’s a “tipping point” in my power output, such that I can put out an average XXX watts for YYY time, but putting out XXX+5% watts would slam me into the ground.
You’re not the first to study that. Look into the Critical Power (CP) model, CP curve, and CP testing methods. (which typically don’t use HR at all). The CP model describes exactly the sort of deflection point you’re talking about.
I have a few screens set up on my Garmin Edge 500, but my main screen has but two items on it:
Power (3s)
Heart Rate
What you get rid of, when you get a powermeter, is worrying about speed and average speed. those become completely irrelevant. It’s funny, I used to hate riding on windy days because it would kill my average speed. Now- it’s all about Np and TSS. Speed - just doesn’t matter (for training of course)
That’s what I’m intending to study. I’ve postulated that there’s a “tipping point” in my power output, such that I can put out an average XXX watts for YYY time, but putting out XXX+5% watts would slam me into the ground.
You’re not the first to study that. Look into the Critical Power (CP) model, CP curve, and CP testing methods. (which typically don’t use HR at all). The CP model describes exactly the sort of deflection point you’re talking about.
Where do you think I got the idea? 
I’m a bit of a number cruncher, prone to do things my own way, if for no other reason than because I can. Plus, as you mentioned, CP doesn’t correlate the direct measure of bodily stress, the heart rate. The “new theory” of my plan is that I can build a correlation between the Critical Power type analysis and heart rate trends and HR drift.
Not expecting that it will give me an advantage over anyone else, but at least give me the best opportunity to train at maximal efficiency (exceeding the inflection point should only be done intentionally, not accidentally during training). I’m 195lbs of meat and bone, my intent is to squeeze as much out of it as I can, without pounding it into hamburger. Ultimately, it’ll be a tool to help me identify methods to improve, AND more importantly, help prevent me from running myself into the ground.
Gday to you too. Is it not still a three sport activity? Still going to need HR for run and the swim. Well swim HR is good during intervals and after the swim portion of race is over. So I would ask the coach if Asics made a power meter shoe or speedo made a powermeter google to let you know how your pacing is going in the other two exercises. So in my opinion he is wrong and you are right :0).
Definitely use both.
Yes, you’ll likely completely rely on power for guiding training, but the HRM is valuable for looking for ‘aerobic decoupling’ where your power drops like crazy for a given HR, usually indicating you’re really fatigued. Also valuable for diverse conditions - on a hot day your power might be low for a high HR, but you might not want to push too hard more in those conditions.
As you’re probably learning now as well, ALL the power numbers can be useful. No one number is the end-all-be-all. TSS is great, but doesn’t give you a complete picture. NP, IF, and even average power (oft neglected but still very useful) and overall watts are all useful to analyze.
I feel having a triangulation between RPE, HR and power is useful real time. Helps you judge an effort from several points.
Gday everyone first post on slowtwitch so here goes,a local coach has told a fellow rider that he doesnt need a HRM now he has a powermeter.I thought you would use both to get maximum benefit.Is he right?
I sincerely hope that you will go and research this subject before you make a decision. I suggest that you go beyond this forum. I have read a lot of garbage here, on this forum, on that particular subject. In short, for your sake, I hope you will not throw it away. Better learn how to use it best in correlation. Bottom line, any training related decisions should never be based on he say, she say or forum.
Just my 2cents.
Just seems a real shame that he’s invested in a great training tool and he’s not getting the best advice
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