Recent experiments with leveling out my back and riding with a lot of drop has shown me the clear speed benefits of riding that way, but a couple of things occurred to me along the way:
As long as you maintain hip angle then power doesn’t change.
It is not particularly sustainable because of neck and seat issues.
Comfort can only be used as a descriptive term in a negative way.
You can’t put in a ton of training hours that way.
It is really fast.
I have multiple bikes, so the observations that might be construed as problems are not an issue because I can just ride the other bikes, but if you only have one bike then it might be different. You would either have to pick a day-in/day-out sustainable training position and then switch out the stem or armrest height for training/racing, or simply race in a position that is fine for training but a known speed compromise.
Or perhaps they just don’t care.
My solution was putting my tribike on the trainer during the long winter. - I have 20 cm drop and that took quite some time getting used to, now I actually find it very comfy and do all of my 5 - 6 hour rides in that position. - My two cents…
I don’t do it b/c I’m not very flexible, therefore I lose power, use more energy and am in some discomfort especially over an IM distance ride. I rather not go so low and just buy all the aero crap. Now that’s a lot of fun! I had my bike fit to me. It was a three hour professional fit measuring power output etc, and a higher position was better for me. Hope this helps.
That is an interesting take on positioning, because I have never found flexibility to have any impact on my power as long as I had the proper hip angle.
I’m curious to know if, during the fitting, they ran any type of aero models and how much time you lose being less aero vs. how much you gain by being able to generate more power. I suspect some shops set you up using what they know (power) and ignore the effects of what they don’t know/can’t measure (drag).
I can’t measure my drag or power in the newer positions (don’t use a PM anymore), but at the end of the day, my watch tells me I am going faster and faster. If I can go faster generating the same power then that is a gain in performance and only cost the price of a stem (of which I have about six now).
Chad
I own a tri bike and a MTB. I use the tri bike for anything on the road including commuting, long rides, mountains etc… (obviously I don’t do many group rides). I’ve been steadily dropping the front end (and moving the seat) over the last 2 years and now ride comfortably with a decent (not huge) gap of ~15 cm versus when I started at ~+5cm. Owning one bike is not an excuse to stop working on your aerodynamics if it’s simply a matter of comfort. Work on it consistently and find a decent position. Each time I adjusted a cm or 2 my neck would complain and I’d sit up a larger percentage of the time. Keep working on it and voolah eventually you have a comfortable position. This is, of course, assuming you’re knowledgable enough to adjust on your own, know your limits etc…
I represent an elite level Ironman triathlete. He also was fitted at the same shop. They found his best power to be in a higher position as well. He took twenty minutes off of his bike split and he he killing it on the run due to being fresh from being comfortable in the saddle. He had much more aggressive position on his last bike, but obviously it wasn’t really working for him as he was very uncomfortable and it was apparently holding him back from doing substantially better. He is now wasting his age group competition by an average of twenty minutes in each of his races including Eagleman, Vineman, Buffalo Springs Lake. I’m sure the aero position is more efficient as long as you are comfortable in it. Otherwise, at least for me, I’d choose comfort and power and feel fresh on the run.
Whats your bike times riding with that much drop and how does it feel to run off. Beginning of this year I actually reduced my drop, from 16 back to 11.
This was initially because I changed out the aerobars and didn’t have anything more than a negative 7 stem. After a number of compu training rides, field tests etc I noticed that not only was I generating more power, but there seemed little reduction in cda and a considerable decrease in neck stress. I had ridden the previous position for over 3 months so I was well adapted.
When I got fitted on my Team Solist from road to tri position, we flipped the seat around but otherwise did not lower my handlebars like I expected.
The fitter said my aero position was pretty good and I would lose power from a more closed hip angle. Not to mention the lower setting inflicted some real discomfort to certain parts of me that I wasn’t used to riding on.
YES! Anything new takes adaptation. Like a lower front end. I have just over 16cm drop, and it IS comfortable (both in the neck and saddle), but if I take some time off, I have to go through another (though shorter) adaptation cycle. If you just lower the front end (even if you do maintain hip angle), your neck is going to be in a different position. SURPRISE! It’s gonna cause some soreness and stiffness.
I have about 12cm of drop. Its not huge because i dont need it too be. My back is horizontal and perfectly set up, same as my road bike. Its because of my body geometry is set up so i dont need a lot of drop.
i think there is one overriding reason why people ride with their aerobars higher than we think they ought to. it’s because when they try to lower them, it’s uncomfortable, and they attribute this to being lower. in fact, they’re uncomfortable because they’re too stretched out, and the lower they go the more this overlong cockpit adds to their discomfort.
if they were fitted properly, and their cockpit distance was correct, then being lower actually adds comfort, instead of subtracting from it.
That was certainly a valid reason when nobody knew how to set up a Tri bike.
I think the overriding reason is that most “fitted” people don’t spend enogh time and effort to adapt/go to that lower position (it is a process after all).
From an anatomical perspective stretching out actually creates a flatter back which results in less strain on the neck.
Assuming when going lower you are able to keep all the angles correct what about neck discomfort at extreme 15-20+ cm of drop. I found that to a point, you can train and adjust to recover initial neck discomfort. However depending on the person a very aggressive position for longer races is just not feasible.
“what about neck discomfort at extreme 15-20+ cm of drop.”
yup, this is a problem. or if not a problem, at least an issue to solve. me, my head is not in that looking-straight-ahead position all the time. i look ahead more than an open water swimming who’s sighting every 8 strokes, but my head is not bobbing like a dashboard hula girl either. in this way i see what i need to see, but give my neck an occasional break. for this reason i won’t use an aero helmet, because i need something that is not hugely unaero when i don’t have that tail attached to my midback.
I think you’re on the right track about why most people don’t ride with a significant amount of drop. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned along with the neck discomfort, which I’ve never had even with a decent amount of drag is the field of vision. I don’t expect my tri position to be “comfortable” but it isn’t bad and it is fast. But I don’t always like to ride the tri bike because of what I can and cannot see when riding. I have a pretty limited field of vision, I see what I need to for safety, but can’t enjoy the sights of the ride much. I don’t on raceday anyway, but if that was my only bike, it would be less fun for sure.
I’m not one to talk about being ultra aero…my position is moderately aero…however, I would think that an aero position in which you don’t actually generate your max average power (if you know what I mean), may be more beneficial because you burn less joules by the time you get to T2. Since you only have a finite amount of joules to burn from the start to finish, perhaps burning a few less joules with a more aero position coming into T2 (even though you might even get there a bit slower), gives you more energy to burn on the run and gets you into the finish chute fastest. Food for thought. I’m not saying give away piles of time coming into T2 by going ultra aero and losing all kinds of power, but I think getting as low and narrow as possible so that you can still digest (Ironman) and run would be a good thing. Of course there is a tipping point for most of us…the majority of age groupers riding around like Bjorn wannabees also seem to be posting 3 hour 56 mile splits…the fast age groupers are aero enough, but not so low and narrow that they are bent like pretzels.
Back to Chad’s question, even with multiple bikes, I don’t think that riding too low is good for my body (neck, crotch and for me joint issues…). For the record, I am plenty flexible.
*i think there is one overriding reason why people ride with their aerobars higher than we think they ought to. it’s because when they try to lower them, it’s uncomfortable, and they attribute this to being lower. in fact, they’re uncomfortable because they’re too stretched out, and the lower they go the more this overlong cockpit adds to their discomfort. *
**
I totally agree with this, with the exception of crotch comfort. I have no neck or lower back problems by going low (and I’m not flexible), but the steeper the more pressure I have on my family jewels. To me this is the limitative factor. But then, some dudes seem to have no problems going 112miles in a speedo. May be it’s just me.
I would think that an aero position in which you don’t actually generate your max average power may be more beneficial because you burn less joules by the time you get to T2.
I think DP may be on to something here. The consistent trends I’ve experienced this year after going from a non-aggressive drop of 8cm to 13cm have been:
faster bike splits on the same courses by 0.5-1 mph.
lower power by 5-10W
significantly faster run splits by 1-2 minutes at OD
Tough to say whether the run benefits are due to change in pedaling dynamics(cadence is faster this year), better fitness, lower bike wattage, or combination.
BTW, I have zero hamstring flexibility - can touch down to about 6 inches above ankles. Torso flexibility decent though.
eventually you have a comfortable position. This is, of course, assuming you’re knowledgable enough to adjust on your own, know your limits etc…