I’ve interviewed about a dozen or more candidates for an electrical engineering position here. I’ve seen a couple of older guys that appear to be from the US, but as far as recent college grads, I’m yet to see even ONE resume, much less a live candidate, that has a name that isn’t obviously Chinese, Indian, or middle eastern. Even the Vietnamese people are rare - that was my generation I guess. Mind you it doesn’t matter to me as far as who I hire, providing they can secure the permanent right to work here. And I don’t believe I’m prejudice, my wife is Asian, my dogs are Belgian, my cars are black, and my lunch was Mexican
So, I"m not complaining about lack of good candidates for the job. My issue is that it doesn’t seem like there are ANY native US kids willing or able to complete an engineering degree. I don’t know for sure, but suspect that medical degrees may be very similar. When I attended school from 86-90 at a small private engineering college in Milwaukee, there were quite a few foreigners, but less than 50% certainly. Now, it appears to me like they must be 90% or greater for this type of degree, at least at a major university like ASU. Am I right?
Why are “kids these days” not interested in engineering? It pays better than almost anything else you can do with a 4 year degree. Are they too lazy? Too dumb to compete? Is the stigma of being a Dilbert engineer so low among this generation that they would rather work at Walmart? Has MTV ruined an entire generation?
Of course I’m stretching it a bit. I live near the ASU campus and I see tons of nice looking young people who appear to be native US (it is hard to tell for sure of course). They don’t seem to be graduating with engineering degrees though.
One thing for sure, American hi-tech companies like mine would be screwed if it weren’t for immigration and H1-B visas. Check that, they would be fine but they would be in India instead. I guess that is my whole concern. With the exception of defence contractors, all the high tech will be gone in another generation.
And by the way, how come none of these immigrants show up for triathlon (the French excluded)?
I am going to be blunt: high schools in the US (most of them anyway) completely sucks. Kids get out and they are not ready to go to college, they struggle through it and graduate only because of universities compete for a high avg. GPA…then, they are simply not accepted into grad school because they aren’t ready.
This at least is true for most of the scientific areas that have a strong emphasis on theory and on mathematics.
I spend a LOT of time helping my students getting up to speed in maths and theory areas. But it’s worth it, because I then get them to go to Grad school and for some into a phd.
Many US students simply avoid math. It’s challenging, it’s not cool, and there’s usually a lot of homework. When it comes to math, it’s the age-old story … those at the top get complacent and lazy and get outworked.
Nation At Risk made a good point that too often, US students have too many choices instead of being forced to take the challenging, basic courses that they need. Given the choice, very few students choose to take the challenging math classes.
Math teachers could make things better by not assigning as much homework. If a kid can demostrate that he knows the material by doing 5 problems, there’s no need (outside of tradition) to have them do 20-30. Math teachers are a funny breed, too many of the ones I know view the relationship of teacher-student as a war or battle. I don’t get it.
Hey, Land of Opportunity. Those that want to work and succeed the most … most often will.
too much homework??? see my answer in the thread started by Tom D being president…
US kids are not taught maths at all. They are told tricks to solve problems. They have no concept of proof, logical thinking etc. Even at the college level, it’s still obvious.
Not only do I whole heartedly agree with Francois, math science etc is simply not taught in the US, but I believe we are losing the ability to “do work” in this country.
I look at each successive generation, and in each a lower capacity and or abilty to do work.
Compare what my grandparents went thru and had to do to simply survive for the most part. Full time work, usually hard physical labor, moslty to simply keep food on the table and a roof over their heads.
My parents “the boomers” made huge leaps into the “luxuries” departments. Nicer house, union comfy jobs, cars, TV etc. But for the most part they still put in a days labor for a days wages.
My generation got pretty much everything they wanted plus extremely loosened work environment and lessened expectations in the classroom. We for the most part still did the harder work as it was still the “higher paying job” with more promise. However many simply lived of of Mommy and Daddy’s work.
At present my daugthers generation the expectation is that there should be no expectations. Many, even most parents expect nothing from their children but give them everything. They are constantly exposed to “instant riches” and have come to expect that everything will be “given to them”. I pass class, because I’m there. Jo-Jo is rich because he wrote A song…with very poor english. And ling-ling is rich because they have a nice but and purchased breasts…certainly I don’t have to actually work to make money…say it isn’t so.
I’m also very concerned, both on the loss of credible educational production but also on the complete and utter disdain for “Work”. Work the other four letter word.
I knew lot’s of engineers in college, of all stripes (I’m only 26), and I actually pretend to be one at times at work. I work with hundreds (literally) of white, male, American engineers.
They are out there, but like you are saying, there are too many WASP’s going for engineering degrees these days.
Sad how dependent we are on foreign intelligence these days eh? There are a myriad of reasons for this, HS doesn’t teach math well, etc etc.
I blame lazy kids who want to get rich quick. Who really wants to go through all that WORK to make money? Geez, that’s so 1950’s. But get rich quick is the American way, so I guess it is our own fault really.
you are not dependent on foreign intelligence. there is just too much focus on the practical stuff and not enough on the theoretical stuff in the US (and the reverse is true in Europe). The consequence is that a lot of engineers are completely unable to adjust a new environment.
It’s really a cultural thing here I think, like many of you are saying. American kids believe they are entitled to the world, and their are many safetly nets in place if they are too lazy to make a living. Most have never seen true poverty and people struggling to overcome it.
My wife is Korean, although her and her brother went to high school in the US. Her brother now lives in Korea. One of his jobs is teaching English to grade school kids, kids that are like 8 years old. He calls them on the phone starting at around 4:30 a.m., and talks to them for about 15 minutes in his American English accent. This is extra curricular homework for these kids that they do to get ahead in this world, before they leave for class at 5:30am or so. In the evening, he is on the phone to other kids until after midnight. These are grade-school kids doing school and homework 18 hours a day. The ultimate acheivement is to be accepted to a Korean university. Those that fail come to the US universities (or other countries). You want to know why Hyundia went from being a joke to being among the top rated in quality in less than a decade, this is why. Samsung is now bigger than Sony. You can talk about burn-out, but when EVERYONE does it, it just seems normal and they don’t feel bad about it at all. The culture just expects you to work hard, and those that work the hardest get the most respect, not the ones that can throw a football or make up stupid rap songs. Kids wear uniforms to school, not gold chains and low rise jeans.
My wife thinks we should raise our children in Korea because it will be much better for them. I think she is right. Too bad I don’t speak Korean and don’t particularly want to live in a country with a much lower standard of living, tons of government corruption, and on the brink of nuclear war about every 2 years. And I’d be a hated American, they can be rather prejudice to mixed couples.
US kids math scores came in 24th of 29 countries. Other studies indicate that the US is well behind in math and science. I don’t think this tells the whole picture because the US has quite an diverse/averaged population, but the bottom line is when you have a president/party that believes in creationism as their official policy, how can you expect American kids to excel in science?
In Arizona, they have something called the AIMS test, which is supposed to be a test that all high school students must pass in order to graduate. It sets the minimum standard and preserves the value of a high school diploma. The test questions were structured such that an average sophmore should be able to pass them.
Something like 70% were still failing their senior year (it’s either this year, or the next year, that it is supposed to take affect). Now the government is backing down, allowing them to apply credits towards their test score. I think they have it now so that, if you take the right credits, you can pass with only a 40% score. So much for that. On top of that, they feel it is unfair for retarded kids to have to pass it. Exactly what does a diploma represent then, that you showed up once in a while?
I’m speaking from loose memory so if someone has better details feel free to correct me.
I posted this here already. My daughters 8th grade graduation was renamed a “rite of passage”. I’m sure the official reason was because it would sound better etc. The realistic reason is that they wanted to let all of the failing kids take place in the ceremony.
“the bottom line is when you have a president/party that believes in creationism as their official policy, how can you expect American kids to excel in science?”
And the award for most nonsensical, non-factual, non sequitur goes to cerveloguy.
I always first find fault with parents because it is their job to raise their kids, and if they don’t do a good enough job with their kids that the brats are running around “acting the fool” then the parents in a twisted way are reaping what they sow.
As bad as the averages make things seem, it is not that bad for the kids who have always done well in America. The one’s with their heads on straight, who have proper values and priorities, and are willing to work do well.
I went to college 1988-92, and I can clearly see a bunch of trends in American education, most of them not good.
The first is that there is little initial monetary incentive for American kids to build careers in engineering, especially when there seems to be an endless supply of foreign talent which is more than happy to work for slightly less money. Secondly, the country’s economy has morphed significantly from a development and manufacturing based economy to a service-based economy where the people who make the most money tend to be financiers, lawyers or consultants. As a result, technical background, while useful, tends to be undervalued next to what I’ll call high-level functionary positions.
I also think that high school education has gotten worse over the years. I think part of this is the fact that we are relying more and more on standardized testing, which is a bad move. You start to lose the sense for concepts and ideas as teachers are forced to teach more to the test, which tends to be more about rote knowledge and not about pathways of thinking and critical analysis skills. I think we also just simply don’t force math and science onto our kids because they just don’t like it. And frankly, with science becoming politicized in this country, it’s not as if this is going to encourage intellectual exploration in the sciences amongst our youth.
I get the feeling that something has happened to public education in the last 15 years. I went to public high school, out of state public university, and got my MBA at a public university as well. But when I started my job at a large Wall Street investment bank, I found that the enormous majority of my colleagues had never been inside a public school. They had all gone to Exeter, Cranbrook, Choate, or whatever. I don’t know if this speaks simply to class issues and mobility, or whether it is a judgment on public schooling. I think in the high end suburbs around major cities you’ll find that public schooling is still quite strong, but outside of metro areas it falls off significantly.
I know there are plenty of people, many on this board in fact, who take it as an article of faith that we’ll always be the greatest country on earth yadda yadda yadda, but I’ll tell you what, if we don’t wake the fuck up and start investing more in education, that lead will evaporate more quickly than we can imagine.
Foreign talent DOES NOT work for less money…otherwise you just wouldn’t get the H1 visa. The company sponsoring you has to show a foreigner getting an H1 is getting the same as a US citizen (among other things)
