Disc wheel surface

Ok all you slowtwitchers

I have a Disc wheel question for you; we all know (or have been told) that the Zipp Disc with its quite little dimples is the fastest Disc out there. Now I have a Renn and it rocks, and it also has a texture to it. But not being able to leave those nice big black side alone with out some personalization. I was putting some pin striping on them to give them some visual movement when rolling. Did I just do the same thing with the pin striping as the little dimples are doing by keep the airflow from sticking to the disc surface?

Bikedude

sounds good to me but I’m wondering if it’s that simple.

And the answer is… maybe!!!

Certainly, textured surfaces influence aerodynamics. I assume that zipp did studies and found that texturing helps on a disk and that thier texturing is optimal (or it may be all marketing.

Your homemade texturing is unlikely to hurt, but I assume that zipp did some work on whats best, so I doubt that you randomly hit on something better.

a disk is a disk, ask Cerveloguy
.

Doesn’t the texturing on the Zipp wheel spell out “ZIPP”? I’d be stunned if that exact pattern of letters turned out to be the most aerodynamic pattern that could have been put on a wheel.

Thought question: why do golf balls all have dimples, yet none have pinstripes?

I don’t think you made your wheel faster - however, it already is about as fast as possible, and now is more stylish.

because when you hit it with the club it would come off!

bikedude…

guys, I have had the misfortune to have to study this stuff, so the following has some scientific basis - although it was a few years back now…

the dimples on the golf balls work as follows - each dimple holds a small pocket of air which is carried along with the ball as it travels at high speed though the “outside” air - as the “outside” air passes over the ball, each of the small pockets of air acts like a pneumatic “ball bearing” - i.e. the “outside” air travels over the series of “ball bearings” rather than contacting the surface of the ball - as a result, the flow of the outside air remains laminar rather than becoming turbulent as a result of direct contact with the surface of the ball - hence, there is less drag and the ball flies further.

in theory, the same principles apply to other surfaces - although I would point out that the speed of a disc is an order of magnitude less than the speed of a golf ball - so the effect is likely to be considerably less.

finally, I happen to know that some testing was done with the Australian pursuit riders where they compared standard discs with dimpled discs - they found no measureable difference in drag - although the testing was done on a velodrome, so the yaw angle would have been zero - perhaps a difference might show up at higher yaw angles

bottom line - not worth losing sleep over

Forget the theories. go with the real world, and humans in particular.

If dimples made you faster, then fat chicks with cellulite would be on the podium at races.

Since these women do NOT appear on the podium, I would suggest that the smoother appearance as found on fast women is actually the fastest available. Proof is in the pudding remember!

Why would you want your disc wheel to look like a fat chicks butt? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

TriDork

did I just kill off Zipps sales of dimpled discs in one simple post? I hope not

We have tons of stuff on this at the website, but here is an interesting third party article on the topic pasted below. As an aside, the 3M riblet film mentioned in the article (which requires much higher Reynolds number flows that we see in bicycles unfortunately, but we’ve tried it anyway) has been outlawed in pretty much every type of boat and aircraft racing worldwide, if we rode underwater we would all be paying a fortune for riblet films. The key to making the surface work, is based on dimple pattern, dimple shape and depth of dimple. In the old days, many golfballs had positive protrusions on them, and that worked too, just not as well. Now companies spend millions trying to make the dimples on the balls more efficient, generally packing them tighter and trying odd shapes. There are actually balls that are illegal for tournament play because they fly too far in the PGA ‘Iron Byron’ test. For the record, the Zipp dimples are icosohedral (20 sided) and a few thousandths of an inch deep, the dimples at the perimeter and towards the top of the wheel are the most important, and letters, actually form a very random and efficient pattern, but their location near the hub minimizes their importance and effect. We tried about 10 different patterns in the wind tunnel before arriving at the pattern currently in production, and they were definitely all not created equal, and yes, some of them were worse.

In the wind tunnel, the result is between 2 and 6 watts of efficiency improvement over the smooth disc between 5 and 30 degrees of yaw, and between 0 and 2 watts improvement from 0-5 degrees. As an average that’s like 6-10 seconds per 40km, more if it’s windy. We see even better results in the rims due to the sidewall curvature and rim shaping but that’s another story. Lastly, the new Lexus LS400 uses a dimpled underbelly not so much for drag, but to minimize noise. Since it takes energy to create sound (we all don’t want higher wattage speakers for nothing…) this means it also operates at a higher efficiency though this clearly was not the primary goal, I think this is a really clever use of the technology.

Providence, RI–More than a century ago, golfers noticed a curious phenomenon: Used golf balls flew better than new, smooth ones. Random patterns of dents on the used balls actually stabilized their flight and, in some cases, made them go farther. Eventually, the golf world incorporated that knowledge into the design of new balls, providing them with dimples.

http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/dn.rbi/;tax=4252;tax=4253;tax=4263;tax=4280;tax=4344;tax=4379;sz=1x1;ord=1097789658?

Now, engineers may benefit from a similar phenomenon that offers potential improvements in disciplines ranging from aircraft design to pump operation. A recently published study in the journal Nature describes a technique for reducing skin friction drag by up to 13% on aerodynamic surfaces. Aircraft engineers say that if such reductions could be achieved on production aircraft, it would be a significant step forward. “When we try to reduce drag, we normally work in second decimal places,” notes William W. Greer, vice president of engineering and quality assurance for Learjet (Wichita, KS). “So 13% represents a revolution to us.”

Drag reduction has long been an area of concentration among aircraft designers, for good reason. Some estimate that a typical commercial aircraft can save between $100,000 and $120,000 a year in fuel costs by cutting overall drag just 1%. Worldwide, a 1% drag reduction could translate to fuel savings of more than $1 billion a year. What’s more, the new technique could apply to a wide variety of other applications, including designs of ships, submarines, torpedoes, pumps, HVAC ducting, mixing machinery, and pipe flow systems.

Random pattern is key. The new reductions in skin friction drag involve the use of a simple aerodynamic surface geometry. Researchers Sture Karlsson, an emeritus professor of engineering at Brown University, and Lawrence Sirovich, director of the applied mathematics laboratory at CUNY/Mt. Sinai in New York, found that a random pattern of small bumps could lower skin friction drag. The size of the bumps, or so-called “chevrons,” is determined by the thickness of the viscous wall layer on the aerodynamic surface, they say. Though the precise size of the chevrons is proprietary, they do describe them as being on the order of a “fraction of a millimeter.”

The real key to the extraordinarily high reductions, however, is not the size of the bumps, but their overall pattern. Sirovich and Karlsson found that the chevron pattern must be random. When using a random pattern, they achieved skin friction drag reductions between 12% and 13%. In contrast, aligned bumps not only failed to lower the drag, they raised it by as much as 20%.

The theory behind their findings is complex, but it basically says that the random chevrons reduce “bursting” near an aerodynamic surface. Bursting, which is caused by low speed air streaks near the wall, is generally believed to be responsible for intense turbulence and, therefore, greater drag.

Sirovich and Karlsson aren’t the first to employ surface geometry changes as a means of lowering drag. Researchers have been trying to find ways to “energize the boundary layer” for almost two decades. They’ve tried putting microscopic holes on aerodynamic surfaces to suck the boundary layer off, and they’ve applied grooves to wing surfaces to decrease turbulence. 3M Aerospace is currently testing Drag Reduction Film, which employs small riblets in the air flow direction. Used on an Airbus A-340, the film has been successful in reducing drag. Cathay Pacific Airlines applied it on one commercial aircraft that flies long routes, and it has achieved drag reductions of approximately 0.8%. “It has allowed Cathay to fly from Hong Kong to Toronto without a refueling stop,” notes Tom Ihbe, 3M Aerospace market development supervisor. “Sometimes in the past, they had to refuel in Anchorage.” Ihbe adds that the riblet film offered drag reductions ranging from 2-4% in wind tunnel tests.

Up to now, however, no one has achieved skin friction drag reductions as great as 12-13%. Because the figures are so high, some experts believe that airframe manufacturers might be inclined to invest substantial capital in it if the concept proves out.

Still, they warn, much remains to be learned about it. “Its success will depend on how it affects an aircraft’s handling and sound characteristics,” Greer says. “It will also depend on how maintainable it is and what it costs.” One way to implement the concept, Greer says, is to program CNC systems to ma-chine the random chevrons into the wing skins during regular machining operations.

Business jet manufacturers might be willing to make such accommodations, not because of fuel savings, but because of the additional range the concept could provide. Greer says that the newest Learjet could extend its 2,000-mile range by as much as 120 miles by employing the concept. “For business jet operators, that’s where the real advantage is,” Greer says.

**More than aerospace. **Even if the concept ultimately loses its appeal to the aircraft industry, Sirovich and Karlsson believe that it offers advantages elsewhere. Like 3M’s riblet film, which was used on Stars and Stripes in the America’s Cup competition in 1988, the random chevrons could find application in the design of large ships and racing boats. Sirovich also believes that the concept could play a role on submarines. By reducing drag on a submarine’s hull, the concept could enable submarine powerplant designers to employ less powerful pumps. As a result, submarines employing the concept would be more difficult to pick up on enemy sonar.

The concept could also play a key role in water pumping equipment. If used on the inside of a pipe, for example, it could reduce the horse-power required to pumpwater. As a result, it could be valuable for fire fighting equipment and water hydraulics systems.

Ironically, Sirovich believes that the aligned chevron concept, which* raises* drag by 20%, could eventually be as important as the random chevron idea. Because the aligned concept causes greater turbulence, it could serve in applications that require fluid mixing and heat transfer. In HVAC, for example, designers might employ it on the insides of air ducts. There, greater turbulence could cause more effective heat transfer. As a result, furnaces could use less powerful blower motors. The same technique could also serve in electronic package design, where more efficient heat transfer enables chips to run cooler, as well as in chemical mixing equipment.

Ultimately, the concept’s success will depend on how well it can be replicated in further wind tunnel tests, and how effectively it translates to real-world engineering. If Sirovich and Karlsson’s results are correct, a 13% skin friction drag reduction could lead to overall aircraft drag reductions of as much as 6.5%. (Skin friction drag typically comprises about half of an aircraft’s overall drag.) But even if the concept only achieves one-third of that in actual application, aircraft manufacturers would be elated. “It’s not yet clear how much real-world drag reduction we can achieve with this concept,” Sirovich says. “But in our experiments it’s been a factor of two better than any technique out there now.”

Dude,

Wasn’t it PT Barnum that said there’s a sucker born every minute?

For a few dollars you can learn the truth. CH Aero cover vs Zipp disc.

http://www.biketechreview.com/

Josh,

Thanks for the info.  I have found all your postings to be quite instructive.  On that note you mentioned in the discussions on aero wheels that Zipp would be publishing the white papers from the Texas A&M wind tunnel testing.  Any word when that will be up on the website? 

Thanks,

Guy

dimples won’t make you faster unless its a point tot point downhill course. at 40k you might be 1 sec faster.

of course you pay extra for the dimples

I read this a while back, but can’t remember: did he use the dimpled disk or the pre-'04 disk?

–jens

Surface roughness, like the one the new Renn disks have, make sense in order to trip the boundary layer over the surface of the disk. Dimples are a lot less efective for that purpose, although much more effective for marketing purposes. Because everybody knows why golf balls have dimples, but nobody asks why tennis balls don’t need them in order to travel faster through the air.

Cerveloguy: As somebody who counts Kraig Willet as a friend (and one of the smartest people I know) I have to say that we have been trying for years to replicate the data you reference from him and have not been successful, also having looked at and compared historical data from A&M along with data from John Cobb and a couple of other companies in the industry, we have never seen similar results to the Willet testing with any disc wheel. I can say that when you only run one test per wheel, you can get outlying data due to a million factors, so no doubt that his data is real, but it is not representative of the 100+ runs we have done in the last 4 years on ours and most every other disc currently available. The testing we have run lately is all based on average drag profiles of a minimum of 3 runs, but generally more than 7 for statistical purposes, this is specifically to eliminate abnormal high and low drag data which can be captured in single run testing. What we have seen in the past 4 years is that most all discs show near identical aero profiles in the tunnel, flat, lens, cone shapes, you name it. About the only thing that seems to make a difference from an aerodynamic pressure point of view (and John Cobb has discussed this as well) is whether the wheel has a lip at the OD or not. Many discs have a lip where the outer rim was attached, and some do not. We feel that the lip (and there may or may not be when using a cover such as the CH, depending on how you assemble the thing, and what rim you are using) tends to show increased drag, particularly with the wheel in the bike, as the back half of the wheel is the primary aero surface in the bike/wheel system. Our testing shows the lip of a post bonded rim tends to cause 0.05-0.075 lbs of drag increase over a continuous surface (this test done with identical non-dimpled discs).

The area where dimpled disc show the most improvement is in wattage to spin the wheel during the testing. The aero loading of the wheel and wattage to spin are decoupled in wind tunnel testing and must both be considered when studying these effects. Most all discs will have identical drag numbers in the tunnel if you test them enough to get statistically manageable data, but we see large variances in the wattage required to spin the wheel during these tests, and even larger differences when the wheel is in the bike. It is this wattage to spin data that drives the design of the surface texture and the shape of the wheel. Bikes with tighter seat and chainstays can benefit enormously from flat discs rather than lens or cone sided discs as the disc surface needs to be as far as possible away from the frame members. The lens and cone shaped discs are essentially as fast as flat discs, until they have too much proximity to nearby frame members, at which point we see boundary layer interference between the disc surface and seatstay, and ‘air damming’ occurs generating high pressure and high drag in this region. The dimples serve to force an even thinner boundary layer which is even less likely to interfere, making it faster in most frames, but particularly faster in frames with tight rear ends. These wheels were designed around wheel only data in the tunnel, and refined in tests with frames. Different dimple or roughness patterns have very different results, some being downright slower than a smooth surface and some being quite a bit faster. We studied numerous surfaces before settling on the one we use in production, and found that dimple shape density and depth seemed to control the performance more than any other factors. We do have some disc data to be published in the white papers, so I will let everybody know when we post that. Smartasscoach, I have to disagree thoroughly. The old Zipp disc and most others was not actually smooth, but lightly roughened from being molded against a peel ply in the autoclave. This imparts a light texture shared by most all disc wheels, and is what we consider ‘smooth’. From study, however, we tried numerous surface variations including additional peel ply roughness, radial indents, circumferential indents, radial and circumferential protrusions, even wet sand smooth with high polish and so on, and found many of them increased wattage to spin the wheel, some made no difference and some did show improvement. I’m not saying that we even have 100% understanding of why some patterns work and others don’t, but actual study and testing have shown that there are verifyable improvement in the latest dimple design. Also, the fuzz on a tennis ball acts in much the same way as a the dimples on a golf ball, forcing a turbulent boundary layer near the surface of the ball leading to a reduced pressure drag. It is not quite as low drag as a dimpled surface due to high skin friction coefficient of the fuzz, but offers similar pressure drag reductions. The seams on a baseball have a similar effect, but are more used to control high/low pressure around the spinning ball in order to effect the path of flight, but regardless, a smooth baseball can not be thrown as fast as one with seams. This is why they dimple the plastic balls used in most batting cages.

Josh,

I can’t see why you disagree with me. I used the tennis ball analogy in order to emphasize the effect of surface roughness on tripping the BL. I was refering to “common people” knowledge, not to you that evidently know your stuff. For example, if I had heard John Cobb only once refering to Re number or BL, I would respect him even more :wink:

Anyway, in order to clear what I was saying, and getting (just) a bit more technical, I would say that having a well chosen surface roughness makes more sense in a disc wheel than dimples because of the characteristics of the flow. Simply because you can’t predict where the transition line will be and because working conditions vary so much, it makes sense to have a feature of the surface without a preferable direction and that can cause imediate transition to turbulent flow, i.e. without laminar separation. With dimples, unsteady laminar separation can happen caused by the dimples.

Of course that a dimpled wheel has more market potential than a rough surface wheel, and that was the way that you guys followed. But I still think that if you had followed the path of the rough wheel, you could have designed a faster wheel than the best dimpled design.

Probably didn’t hurt Zipp sales, but you definitely gave me something to think about that I definitely DID NOT want to think about this morning…

Sorry smartasscoach, I guess I read your post thinking that you were referencing a tennisball as ‘smooth’, so my mistake. However, if a tennisball were dimpled, it would fly faster than it does with fur, as the dimpled surface has much lower skin friction than the fuzz. Though we have never tried fuzz on a wheel (er…except for that Dennis Rodman show bike…), we have tried varying surface roughness from the molding process. We actually built prototypes ranging from polish smooth to 12k peel ply surface (where the weave thickness at fiber crossover creates high spots, and areas in between are low spots), to represent varying roughness, and found that the pre-existing ‘smooth’ Zipp surface was as good as anything, and better than most. We even tried the riblet films in varying orientations, and found that dimples still offered the best solution aerodynamically. Believe me, if we had found that we could use coarse peel ply in the molding procedure, riblet type films, or coarse paint finishes, or comples dimpled decals we would have done it as any of them would have saved tens of thousands of dollars in tooling.

For those with older Zipp discs, there are two generations, the very old ones have a vinyl decal on the surface and are uniform in color, these had surface roughness (Ra) of roughly 75-125 micro-inch. The later discs are discernible by their ‘pie segment’ orientation and have molded in surface roughness of roughly 200-250 micro-inch, which does seem to show better results in the wattage category than the earlier design, as well as being quite a bit lighter. The newest ones have 2477 twenty sided dimples of 4 different depths and 6 different diameters on each side, and show repeatable statistical improvements. For those wondering how good the new surface is and how ‘bad’ some of the test surfaces were, the dimples repeatedly show 2-6 watts efficiency improvement depending on wind angle, while some of the bad surfaces could show 4-8 watt losses at most every wind angle. For many of us those numbers are not huge, representing a handfull of seconds per 40K, but for others, that handful of seconds is a huge deal.

I gotta wonder how such small gains in the tunnel can translate over to the real world.

If you look at a rider, even someone like lance armstrong, they rock their bikes a little bit, atleast to some degree. This is especially true for alot of tt’ers and tri guys who get into a bit of a bob-rythm when they hammer.

Not too mention that a rider is always changing direction relative to the wind.

How does wind tunnel testing account for these variables?

Also, an out of the blue question; Do you think something like humidity might have an effect on how much the dimples theoretically help?