Does anyone have any experience witha disc wheel in Madison? Pros or Cons? What potential time savings will there be over a Zip 404 wheelset?
Thanks
Cannondalekid
I’ve ridden the course many times, both with and without aero wheels and I probably would go without the disc…but that is simply my own take. If conditions are relatively calm, I think the disc would be fast, but the course is highly technical with a lot of quick, steep up and downhills and some blind turns and it is a long haul twice around the loop. Even the out and back “string” before the loop isn’t all that flat. Again, it is personal preference based on what your race goals might be and your bike handling abilities, but I have in the past, and will this September, use a set of 16 spoke front/20 spoke rear lightweight Ritchey wheels instead of my disc and HED 3.
Good luck to you.
Mark
Thank you for your help. Is there a detailed map out there on the Madison bike course? Can you give me some additional information/tips on what to expect out of this course. I plan on riding it two or three times this summer in prep for the race. Thank you once again and good luck on the race.
cannodale kid
There is this lingering, misinformed dogma about disc wheels in cross winds. Watch the past five years of Tour de FRance time trials. In all weather conditions- gusty wind, high wind, rain, everything- Everyone in contention has a rear disk.
There are very, very ,very few conditions where a disk is not the fastest choice. You will go faster with a disk in almost every condition.
Now, if you are a timid rider and back off when the disk is buffeted by the wind, then yeah, you’ll slow down. But if you keep the power on you will actually go faster. Tales of rider’s being blown over are largely urban myths- although there are some genuine instances few and far between.
A buddy of mine used my 650c Zipp 909 wheelset at Wisconsin last year and she is not an experienced rider. She just kind of took it easy on the bike and putzed along to a 13 hour finish. She did the race as a tour. She had no complaints. She thought they worked fine. Her contention is, since the entire race is a fashion show anyway (her words, not mine) you may as well look good.
To me that illustrated that rider’s of all ability levels can ride a disk. She was on a steep angle tri frame (QR) with shifters at the ends of tha aerobars. She’s a little thing too, so the wind would have had its way with her if it could have. She had no problems.
cannondale kid - there’s a map on their website.
Don’t use a disc because you will go slower and give me an advantage with my Renn 575.
Mark M has it nailed: leave your disk at home. Not because of the conditions, but rather because the ride is very technical with lots of abrupt turns, rises, short decents, etc. Deep rims with relatively few spokes is the call.
Hope that helps-
-Mike
I think a disc is “almost” always the choice on most courses if you want to go fast. Having said that, and having ridden the IM-WI course with deep dish wheels and a disc on windy days in training, and having quite a few handling issues on those days (at 185 pounds and almost 15 years of tri experience), my experience told me it was best for me to leave the full aero gear at home. Last September’s race was calm, HOT, but calm, and I am glad that folks who used aero equipment had very few problems on that day.
Once again, I totally believe that the course can be ridden with or without “full aero” capability, depending on your goals and comfort level. I can also tell you that it is a tricky course and my choice would be to go with a solid set of lightweight wheels.
The profile of the course can be found on the Ironman WI website. It is a fun course to ride…it really keeps your attention!
Best,
Mark
Mark M has it nailed: leave your disk at home. Not because of the conditions, but rather because the ride is very technical with lots of abrupt turns, rises, short decents, etc. Deep rims with relatively few spokes is the call.
Hope that helps-
-Mike
mike,
That makes no sense … see Tom D’s post above. What you describe above is actually ideal for a disk in my experience. If he has a disk, absolutely no reason not to use it.
Mark M has it nailed: leave your disk at home. Not because of the conditions, but rather because the ride is very technical with lots of abrupt turns, rises, short decents, etc. Deep rims with relatively few spokes is the call.
Hope that helps-
-Mike
mike,
That makes no sense … see Tom D’s post above. What you describe above is actually ideal for a disk in my experience. If he has a disk, absolutely no reason not to use it.
Lets try that reply again, since Celine Dion is on the Grammy’s right now and that’s not really working for me at the moment (or for her I guess).
I think it doesn’t make much sense to assume one rider’s experience and race goals are the same as anothers. I guess the best thing to do would probably try and get the chance to ride the course with different equipment and see what works best for you. My experience on that course said what was best for me. It is a very different kind of course, and I think the technical nature of it, as well as race conditions led me to think it was best to go without a disc.
Having said that, I do believe wind does play a factor on certain courses. I survived, barely, the winds of Kona 2001 and totally understand why discs are not allowed on the Queen K.
Sting’s now on doing Roxanne…gotta go:)
Use a disc whenever it is legal to do so. Unless you are going uphill entirely, there is no real weight penalty for a disc. If it is windy, use a shallower front wheel. If it is gale force windy, then a disc is not good.
I can’t give numbers, but a disc can save you enough time to where it is worth your trouble. Get a Renn 5ive7even5ive if you don’t have a disc already.
What actually makes no sense is giving anecdotal advice based on generalities when the post asked for suggestions from people with experience. Mark M has more experience riding the course than I do, but based on my 4-5 loops on my 76-degree Waterford with Nimble tri-spokes (including the 2002 innaugural race), I wish I had gone with my road bike and a set of Zipps.
Hey Mark M, can you take all the blind corners wide open or do you need to brake? I’ll be out there in Sept for the event with no chance to do it ahead of time and wonder about making time going downhill and braking wastes free speed. Let me know.
mpl201,
This is not anecdotal and not based on generalities…since my post, see what Bunnyman had to say. The disc is going to be faster. Period. Why do you think the pros at IMH were trying to get that funky HED partial disc legal? It is faster. The one poster asked about goals for the race. I would assume, maybe incorrectly, the goal is to successfully finish and to do so in the least time. That would mean use the disc (I also assume by the question that he already has one).
The rear disc rarely negatively affects handling, and in those very rare circumstances more than makes up with speed. I actually think it, the disc, handles better due to the lateral stiffness. Now, if the handling is the problem then you may want to consider a front wheel with a lessor profile than the nimble (Nimble is a great wheel) - that would have a much greater effect than what ever the rear wheel is.
There may be a question as to whether to purchase a disc, and that is certainly personal and there may be many factors; but, if you already have the disc then by all means use it.
Hi, I’ll jump in here. I work about 4 miles from the loop, and during the summer ride the 40 mile loop once a week, in addition to a few full-distance rides. I don’t have an opinion on the disk/no disk issue since I don’t own a disk or race wheels for that matter. Rich Strauss has a MOO recon report up on his site, and I know he recommended full aero set-up: steep angled bike, tri-bars, and disk.
Regarding cornering and technicality of the course. I’d say it’s pretty technical and hilly, but there is really only a few corners where braking is necessary. One is a sharp right hand corner at the bottom of a long, steady hill by Mt.Vernon. The other is a sharp right corner on Garfoot road before the fast twisty section (they have hay bales set up here in some dudes driveway where a lot of people end up who take the corner too hot). One more is a 90-degree left hand turn at the bottom of a hill not far from Verona, which on race day you may be able to take full tilt depending on your handling skills. If you ride the course once before you can see where you can make up a lot of time since the typical AGer will slow WAAYYY down on these downhill sections and sharp corners. Hope that helps!
Ben
hey ben - if you get the chance could you post the link to the Rich Strauss report? Thanks!
I’m sure he has a nice report all written up, but it must be buried somewhere. Here’s the forum discussion though, which is the meat of his article.
As a regular crit rider I have plenty of skills and fear no turns (until I’m in the dirt) so I thank you for the info. If you view the course as a square, do these areas appear on any particular side so say on saturday the tough parts could be ridden once without doing the whole loop? Let me know what city to start in and how far to get through the tough parts (just curious as I’m desperate to make a few seconds where they’re easiest. I also use a road bike with clip-ons so control in the tough parts is usually a breeze.
I don’t know if you could do the 3 trickies corners without doing the whole loop, but you’ll at least want to drive them. Here’s where their located from the Map from the Ironmanwisconsin website. Everyone in the 25-29 agegroup can ignore the rest of this post, it’s of no benefit to you!
1)The County Hwy G/Route 12 intersection in Mt.Vernon located at the southern part of the loop. Reason why this is tricky: you are coming down a long gradual downhill and should have a fair amount of speed coming up to the stopsign where you’ll turn right onto Hwy 12, immediately after you make the right, you have a short (50 feet?) steep hill. If you maintain your speed through the corner it takes about 3 pedalstrokes to reach the top. You’ll find most people will practically come to a stop at this corner, and you can pass them by the dozen if you corner properly. The problem during training is that if you keep your speed and blow through the stop sign taking the corner, you’ll most likely end up in the other lane where cars could potentially be coming over the back of the hill blind.
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Garfoot road heading north (on the western part of the map) just north of the MIneral Point road intersection. Again, you’re coming down a long, steeper hill and have a sharp right corner, slightly off-camber. You could be coming in about 35mph and the visibility into the corner is not great. Take it too hot and you’re in the ditch or the driveway straight ahead. After this corner, you can pick up speed on the rest of the twisty downhill section where everyone else is backing off a little. No need to back off, except beware of wildlife, I’ve seen deer on this descent and hit a racoon doing 35 or 40 on the bike. There’s another sharp right at the bottom, but nothing to worry about too much. This is the best part of the course and is truly a blast after that first corner.
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Southern most part of Timber lane, just west of the Midtown road text. Again, at the bottom of a long steep downhill, sharp 90-degree left hand turn (sign for cars to slow down to 15 mph if I remember right). If you can drift into the other lane and take the corner properly it’s not too bad, visibility (for vehicles) is ok.
Besides those, the rest of the cornering isn’t too bad. You’ll also want to descend Shady Oak lane. You can pass tons of people as they coast. Take this full tilt, it’s a little twisty, but also a lot of fun. My second favorite part of the loop!