I can’t run a 6 minute mile. I can do 2, maybe 3, repeats of 800m at 3:00, and after than I’m around 3:05. I can do 3, maybe 4, repeats of 400m at 1:30, and after than can’t break 1:30 again. When I’m running these, it’s an all out sprint. Yet I can run a 10K at around 6:35-6:40 pace.
Is that a little strange? It seems that those terribly hard sprint paces (for me) are pretty close to the time I can hold for a much longer distance on the road.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that if I was doing dedicated mile training, I could get it to 6 mins, but not much faster. I don’t have any of the fast twitch fibres.
So what is the difference between sprint and distance paces for you all? Am I a freak?
I cannot run a 6 minute mile either! I’ve never done a sprint tri but I do know that my 10k split in an oly and my half marathon split in a half IM are almost at the same pace 6:45-6:55 or so. The distance doesn’t seem to matter which is weird. I’ve never been on a track before so I don’t know what kind of ‘speed’ I would have at the 800m, etc. I guess we’re somewhat similar.
if you look in daniels’ running formula, you’ll see some relationships for speed vs. distance and some pr’s from some well rounded runners. A rule of thumb is add 16 secs to your pace for each doubling of distance.
Check out mcmillanrunning.com. Greg has a really good pace calulator that will give you some kind of idea for workout times vs. race times as well as equivalent race performance times. Generally, a 10k is about 8-12" slower per mile than a 5k. Relating to distances below that…800s, 400s, etc…will depend more on what type of natural speed you have or don’t have. For me, hitting the workout times on the mcmillan site for 800m on up for a goal 10k time is easier than hitting the times from 400m on down.
In short, I think that most of us do triathlons because we can run closer to the threshold times than the sprint times. I’m sure the person who is gifted with natural speed and who is very trained for distance can hit the shorter as well as the longer interval times.
Yeah, I’ve checked out the McMillan site. If I enter my best 800m time of 2:57, it tells me that my projected 10K time is 47:05, which is more than 6 minutes slower than I’ve gone! That’s why I raised the question, it seems like an awfully large discrepency.
I was thinking that maybe the McMillan site means this: If you are well trained and can run a 10K in a given time, then the site tells you how fast you could run a 800m, if you trained exclusively for the 800m event. I don’t think it just gives training paces.
A rule of thumb is add 16 secs to your pace for each doubling of distance.
Hmmm, I don’t know about this rule of thumb. If you go from 800m to 10K, you double the distance approx. 3.5 times. That would say that I should add 56 secs/mile to my 800m pace to get my 10K pace. But that gives a pace that is about 20 sec/mile slow for my 10K. Weird, huh?
Have you ever run an all out 800 on the track with a good warm up, etc? If you can do several in the 3-3:05 range, I’m guessing you could peel off a 2:40 or so. That’s a one-time shot, not a set of repeats. A 41’ 10k gives 800m repeats for distance runners of 3:01-3:09 which is right in line with what you say you do.
For me, I’m about 5-10" off the 800 time it predicts if I put in a 10k time. As and endurance athlete, I think that it’s safe to say that we’re better off looking at the best times for the 2 or 3 miles for predictions.
well it doesn’t work well for more than a couple of doublings and as daniels puts it. It’s “the best possible pace”. but since you run a faster 10k than you "should’, I guess it just means you don’t train for shorter distances enough, but luckily that doesn’t matter for tri’s. IOW, you should be running faster 800’s, not slower 10k’s.
Usually I would just give this workout to my 800-5000 meter runners but in your case it is useful. It sounds like you have a good base under your legs and a well established threshold. There are two ways to recruit the fast twitch fibers in your legs:
Think like a sprinter once a week
If you run far enough (think 20+ miles) the slow twitch fibers eventually fatigue and the fast twitch fibers are recruited.
I would suggest starting out with 8x100 meter strides at 80% or 4x200 strides a couple of times a week after your 45-60 min runs. Do the strides for two weeks then you can add a sprint workout once a week. Start with 6x100 meter w/ 300m walk after each one. Really think like a sprinter and go 100% all out. Be sure and get a good warm up and some strides in first. It is also important to warm down at least 25 min. (Your legs will feel better after warming down 10-15 min but the first part is not fun) Add on one more 100 meter repeat each week until you get to 10. (As an extra caution to protect from muscle pulls you might want to take a jogging start of 10 meters into every sprint 100.)
“(As an extra caution to protect from muscle pulls you might want to take a jogging start of 10 meters into every sprint 100.)”
Excellent point…and why I like to call these “accelerations” with the folks I work with…as in accelerate up to speed over the first 40-50 and hold for another 30-40 and then bring the speed down slowly again…its about smoothness…as long distance runners we aren’t used to the violence of a sprint…so we do striders…
The thing about running shorter distances (400/800/1000/mile/2000) is that you have to do it…and do it fast…to do it fast…it takes work…AND TAKES ON SOME DEGREE OF INJURY RISK…
This is why I think many coaches are reluctant to prescribe track sessions to their athletes…The original poster said he has a hard time holding a 6:00 pace at the track…but can run in the vicinity of 6:44/mi for a 10k…not uncommon finding…the thing about this athlete is that he can’t really run fast enough at the track to make it worth going there…better, some would say, to just do a tempo run, where you might run 10-30 minutes at 6:25-6:45 pace…
I think track workouts are indispensable for running fast…they are indispensible for cleaning up minor running form issues…
First of all, 400 and 800 repeats are NOT sprint-pace. Those are endurance events among us mortals. The 400 barely qualifies as a sprint for elites – the 800 is most definitely an endurance event even for elites.
You think you’re comparing sprint-pace to endurance-pace, but you’re really just comparing a short endurance pace to a longer endurance pace.
So – doing 800 repeats at 3:05 is roughly consistent with your 10k pace. Maybe a little on the slow side, but certainly within a normal range.
Sprint ability is best measured over nothing longer than 200 meters; 150 or less if you’re not an elite runner.
"This is why I think many coaches are reluctant to prescribe track sessions to their athletes…The original poster said he has a hard time holding a 6:00 pace at the track…but can run in the vicinity of 6:44/mi for a 10k…not uncommon finding…the thing about this athlete is that he can’t really run fast enough at the track to make it worth going there…better, some would say, to just do a tempo run, where you might run 10-30 minutes at 6:25-6:45 pace… "
Brian, I completely agree with you. I would cut the Vo2 max work and focus on the raw speed and tempo runs. Just to clear it up to the newcomers it is fine to do tempo runs on the track if that is your only option. In my case there is a nice grass field at my local hs track. I like to do a loop where 500 is on the track to lock into tempo pace then head out onto the 1000 meter grass field. My rule of thumb is one min rest for every mile run. For example 3x2 miles w/ 2 min rest between each interval, 2x3 miles with 3 min between intervals. You should be able to mantain the same pace or faster on the last interval.