Death at Big Shoulders 2021 swim

Great tribute article on George Wendt in the Chicago Sun Time:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/...V_yzUyiO2i9wfnulh5Ik

Hub - Thanks for that link; man, that guy was a genuine stud swimmer. The coroner apparently ruled his death an “accidental drowning” which seems odd to me. I’ve read elsewhere that he had a heart attack which is the reason he drowned. The coroner’s ruling seems shortsighted and just wrong. Perhaps you or someone with more knowledge of how coroners make their rulings can “enlighten” me on this. :slight_smile:

Its sad to read this. I did a race this last weekend just a 1k swim. I swim regularly and have done many Triathlons. All distances. But this weekend I experienced a moment during the swim which made me think about quitting. I first felt out of breath then felt my wetsuit was constricting me at the neck/chest area. Also I was sandwiched in between to swimmers. So I paused let them go. Pulled and stretched my wetsuit and slowed my pace down. My breathing relaxed and I was able to continue. Made me nervous for a moment but did not panic and was able to stay in control. Scary

When guys like Mr. Wendt can have a heart attack during a swim and Tim O’Donnell can have a heart attack during the bike, it just goes to show that no amount of cardio training and healthy eating is going save you from your inevitable death. You can do everything right and still lose. You can drive your car perfectly on the highway, yet some drunk or inattentive idiot can still come along and kill you and your whole family. You can try as hard as you possibly can, and it still won’t be good enough. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Moderation seems to be good advice, but in the end…you better have gotten out there and done exactly what you wanted to do with your life, lived well, enjoyed the things you enjoy, and not lived paralyzed by the fear of the knowledge that today might well be your last. Personally, I am a warrior by trade, so I follow the code outlined by Tsunetomo Yamamoto in his Hagakure:

“If by setting one’s heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way.”

I agree but also disagree with some of your sentiments.
Whilst there are certainly things that can happen that are entirely unpredictable, there are also many things you can do to prevent such things from occurring (I am talking certain medical investigations etc). It is a bit like your freeway car driving analogy, yes you can get hit by a random stranger, but you could also drive a modern vehicle designed to enhance occupant safety and give them a better chance of survival. In medicine, and in cardiology in particular, there are many things you can now have done to help asses your risk of such sudden events and therefore modify that risk in the short/medium/long term. Its just you need to know who to go to and not all family practitioners are ideal for this. And it is not all about diet and exercise.
Disclaimer: doctor, but not a cardiologist,

I can’t comment on the effect of cholesterol on swimming issues, but my n=1 experience with dietary cholesterol was that it had a significant effect on my blood cholesterol. I cleaned up my diet, and my #s went way down.

I also started training again and lost about 15 lbs., so that probably had an effect too.

But the decrease was quite significant – not just a couple points.

When guys like Mr. Wendt can have a heart attack during a swim and Tim O’Donnell can have a heart attack during the bike, it just goes to show that no amount of cardio training and healthy eating is going save you from your inevitable death. You can do everything right and still lose. You can drive your car perfectly on the highway, yet some drunk or inattentive idiot can still come along and kill you and your whole family. You can try as hard as you possibly can, and it still won’t be good enough. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Moderation seems to be good advice, but in the end…you better have gotten out there and done exactly what you wanted to do with your life, lived well, enjoyed the things you enjoy, and not lived paralyzed by the fear of the knowledge that today might well be your last. Personally, I am a warrior by trade, so I follow the code outlined by Tsunetomo Yamamoto in his Hagakure:

“If by setting one’s heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way.”

I agree but also disagree with some of your sentiments.
Whilst there are certainly things that can happen that are entirely unpredictable, there are also many things you can do to prevent such things from occurring (I am talking certain medical investigations etc). It is a bit like your freeway car driving analogy, yes you can get hit by a random stranger, but you could also drive a modern vehicle designed to enhance occupant safety and give them a better chance of survival. In medicine, and in cardiology in particular, t**here are many things you can now have done to help asses your risk of such sudden events and therefore modify that risk in the short/medium/long term. Its just you need to know who to go to and not all family practitioners are ideal for this. And it is not all about diet and exercise. **
Disclaimer: doctor, but not a cardiologist,

Can you elaborate on how one might “modify that risk” beyond diet and exercise???

Can you elaborate on how one might “modify that risk” beyond diet and exercise??? //

Well dtoce wrote a very good front page article on this, but for something super easy, cheap, and not invasive, you can get a calcium scan of your heart and arteries. Blood cholesterol numbers are all fine and good to know, and to limit, but knowing how much has actually accumulated and narrowed your pipes, well that is great information to know. Then you can actually act on that information, good or bad.

I have 5 friends who died, couple more that nearly did, all way faster and in better shape than you and I. One can appear super healthy, but have this silent killer just waiting for the perfect storm to close up and dish out the ultimate bad outcome. My scores have finally tipped in the bad direction, and now I can do something other than diet and exercise to arrest any more blockage.

Can you elaborate on how one might “modify that risk” beyond diet and exercise??? //

Well dtoce wrote a very good front page article on this, but for something super easy, cheap, and not invasive, you can get a calcium scan of your heart and arteries. Blood cholesterol numbers are all fine and good to know, and to limit, but knowing how much has actually accumulated and narrowed your pipes, well that is great information to know. Then you can actually act on that information, good or bad.

I have 5 friends who died, couple more that nearly did, all way faster and in better shape than you and I. One can appear super healthy, but have this silent killer just waiting for the perfect storm to close up and dish out the ultimate bad outcome. My scores have finally tipped in the bad direction, **and now I can do something other than diet and exercise to arrest any more blockage. ******

But what is this “something” that you’re now doing that you weren’t before???

When guys like Mr. Wendt can have a heart attack during a swim and Tim O’Donnell can have a heart attack during the bike, it just goes to show that no amount of cardio training and healthy eating is going save you from your inevitable death. You can do everything right and still lose. You can drive your car perfectly on the highway, yet some drunk or inattentive idiot can still come along and kill you and your whole family. You can try as hard as you possibly can, and it still won’t be good enough. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Moderation seems to be good advice, but in the end…you better have gotten out there and done exactly what you wanted to do with your life, lived well, enjoyed the things you enjoy, and not lived paralyzed by the fear of the knowledge that today might well be your last. Personally, I am a warrior by trade, so I follow the code outlined by Tsunetomo Yamamoto in his Hagakure:

“If by setting one’s heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way.”

go 4 years back on some slowtwitch articles, you can see he loved donuts and what not. recently just changed his diet after GI issues started to happen. But its hard to undo long term damage. Perhaps his recent fixes allowed him to survive this one at least.

Well for this particular thing(high calcium score) I’m taking a daily baby aspirin and going on a very small dose of Crestor. Two very well respected cardiologists I use, have both told me that this combination should arrest most if not all of the build up in my arteries. I’m proactively heading off a future stint, or bypass, or fatal 100% blockage heart attack.

And I dont have exceptionally high cholesterol, usually a total score of 180 to 190, with a super good ratio in the very low 3’s. But that number does not tell the whole story, it just depends on how sticky your cholesterol is. So even a very low number could be bad, but no way to know just from your blood tests.

The new number for total has been dropped in the past decade or so, from the 200 number to 160 now. I think there is a lot of information now that lowering to that level and even lower, will net out better outcomes later in life…

Well for this particular thing(high calcium score) I’m taking a daily baby aspirin and going on a very small dose of Crestor. Two very well respected cardiologists I use, have both told me that this combination should arrest most if not all of the build up in my arteries. I’m proactively heading off a future stint, or bypass, or fatal 100% blockage heart attack.

And I dont have exceptionally high cholesterol, usually a total score of 180 to 190, with a super good ratio in the very low 3’s. But that number does not tell the whole story, it just depends on how sticky your cholesterol is. So even a very low number could be bad, but no way to know just from your blood tests.

The new number for total has been dropped in the past decade or so, from the 200 number to 160 now. I think there is a lot of information now that lowering to that level and even lower, will net out better outcomes later in life…

Ah, so meds, thanks. My total CH has avgd around 160 over past 30 yrs and my HDL (good) CH has avgd about 76, so ratio of Total/HDL = 2.1 which lower than “vegetarian Boston runners”. :slight_smile: However, I can see how the CA scan would provide more info.

Good for you Eric, you appear to have some good genes, and making the most of them. But if I were you, I would still want to know if my low level was sticky or not. As I understand it, low doesnt necessarily mean not sticky…And it is such a simple thing to do, and can do a lot towards a much more calm and peaceful attitude we can take into our gut busting forays.

Well for this particular thing(high calcium score) I’m taking a daily baby aspirin and going on a very small dose of Crestor. Two very well respected cardiologists I use, have both told me that this combination should arrest most if not all of the build up in my arteries. I’m proactively heading off a future stint, or bypass, or fatal 100% blockage heart attack.

And I dont have exceptionally high cholesterol, usually a total score of 180 to 190, with a super good ratio in the very low 3’s. But that number does not tell the whole story, it just depends on how sticky your cholesterol is. So even a very low number could be bad, but no way to know just from your blood tests.

The new number for total has been dropped in the past decade or so, from the 200 number to 160 now. I think there is a lot of information now that lowering to that level and even lower, will net out better outcomes later in life…

Ah, so meds, thanks. My total CH has avgd around 160 over past 30 yrs and my HDL (good) CH has avgd about 76, so ratio of Total/HDL = 2.1 which lower than “vegetarian Boston runners”. :slight_smile: However, I can see how the CA scan would provide more info.

i believe you can split the steps you can take to reduce your risk of sudden cardiac death into two categories: your body’s behavior; and your control of the environment.

examples of your body’s behavior is going into cardiac arrest. an example of controlling the environment is warming up before the swim; keeping calm and out of trouble during the swim.

as to that first category, i’m in the middle of this right now. i had a regular cardiac workup; followed by an echocardiogram and a stress EKG. i’ve got a plumber and an electrician on the job. the plumber now knows the general state of my heart. i go in to see the electrician next, because i have paroxysmal atrial fibrillation, and i’d like to have a better strategy for that, when it occurs (anti-arrhythmia drug, possible ablation, possible cardioversion).

next up is a cardiac calcium CT scan.

but i’m with you; there is no sense in knowing the data if the data doesn’t change your behavior. in the case of the calcium score, this will tell me whether i need to go on a statin or not. my cholesterol is moderately high, but my BP is quite low, which to this layman says that perhaps my blood vessels are in at least pretty good shape. if my calcium score is zero, then i won’t go on a statin. if it’s above zero, then i will consider a statin.

beyond all of that, there are training behaviors that i engage in now that i believe better serve me as someone on the cusp of the 65-69 age-up. for reasons i can go into, for those interested, i’m not often into that top HR zone in my training. those are coveted moments that have their time.

point being, we’re not helpless. there are behaviors that we can exhibit in training, in race behavior, and in via medical inquiry. i’m just now in the middle of it, so, i can’t reveal the denouement of my process.

This!!! Never knew the guy but know people who did. They’ve all said that he left doing what he loved.

(edited for perceived insensitivity)

Who would prefer that death (or anything like it) to dying in bed, holding your spouse’s hand, with your kids around?

I guess you have some insight that I don’t. Is that how most people die?

I’ve never experienced dying though I’ve cared for and witnessed many patients dying…

WTF is the purpose of your post? Being a prick, bring attention to yourself? I have friends who knew him mourning his loss and your comment makes me sick to my stomach.

Good for you Eric, you appear to have some good genes, and making the most of them. But if I were you, I would still want to know if my low level was sticky or not. As I understand it, low doesn’t necessarily mean not sticky…And it is such a simple thing to do, and can do a lot towards a much more calm and peaceful attitude we can take into our gut busting forays.

Ya, I plan to call to make an appt for the CA scan tomorrow morning.

Well for this particular thing(high calcium score) I’m taking a daily baby aspirin and going on a very small dose of Crestor. Two very well respected cardiologists I use, have both told me that this combination should arrest most if not all of the build up in my arteries. I’m proactively heading off a future stint, or bypass, or fatal 100% blockage heart attack.

And I dont have exceptionally high cholesterol, usually a total score of 180 to 190, with a super good ratio in the very low 3’s. But that number does not tell the whole story, it just depends on how sticky your cholesterol is. So even a very low number could be bad, but no way to know just from your blood tests.

The new number for total has been dropped in the past decade or so, from the 200 number to 160 now. I think there is a lot of information now that lowering to that level and even lower, will net out better outcomes later in life…

Ah, so meds, thanks. My total CH has avgd around 160 over past 30 yrs and my HDL (good) CH has avgd about 76, so ratio of Total/HDL = 2.1 which lower than “vegetarian Boston runners”. :slight_smile: However, I can see how the CA scan would provide more info.

i believe you can split the steps you can take to reduce your risk of sudden cardiac death into two categories: your body’s behavior; and your control of the environment.

examples of your body’s behavior is going into cardiac arrest. an example of controlling the environment is warming up before the swim; keeping calm and out of trouble during the swim.

as to that first category, i’m in the middle of this right now. i had a regular cardiac workup; followed by an echocardiogram and a stress EKG. i’ve got a plumber and an electrician on the job. the plumber now knows the general state of my heart. i go in to see the electrician next, because i have paroxysmal atrial fibrillation, and i’d like to have a better strategy for that, when it occurs (anti-arrhythmia drug, possible ablation, possible cardioversion).

next up is a cardiac calcium CT scan.

but i’m with you; there is no sense in knowing the data if the data doesn’t change your behavior. in the case of the calcium score, this will tell me whether i need to go on a statin or not. my cholesterol is moderately high, but my BP is quite low, which to this layman says that perhaps my blood vessels are in at least pretty good shape. if my calcium score is zero, then i won’t go on a statin. if it’s above zero, then i will consider a statin.

beyond all of that, there are training behaviors that i engage in now that i believe better serve me as someone on the cusp of the 65-69 age-up. for reasons i can go into, for those interested, i’m not often into that top HR zone in my training. those are coveted moments that have their time.

point being, we’re not helpless. there are behaviors that we can exhibit in training, in race behavior, and in via medical inquiry. i’m just now in the middle of it, so, i can’t reveal the denouement of my process.

Ya, I do a lot of long (4000 to 7000 yds) relatively slow swim workouts at a moderate HR; I swim, kick, and pull all four strokes but I doubt my HR goes above 75% of max HR. Same for running, lots of slow runs of 4-6 miles. I go fairly hard doing pullups, dips, and pushups but those are never more than 30-40 sec efforts on a 2:00 interval.

I guess you have some insight that I don’t. Is that how most people die?

I’ve never experienced dying though I’ve cared for and witnessed many patients dying…

WTF is the purpose of your post? Being a prick, bring attention to yourself? I have friends who knew him mourning his loss and your comment makes me sick to my stomach.

Most people don’t die the way they’d like. What does that have to do with it?

I’m pretty sure that my post speaks for itself as to its purpose. My post has nothing to do with me, as you could discern if you read it (again).

What do you love to do, and would you honestly rather die doing that as opposed to being with those you love? I never understood this mentality, for which I apologize.

This!!! Never knew the guy but know people who did. They’ve all said that he left doing what he loved.

(edited for perceived insensitivity)

Who would prefer that death (or anything like it) to dying in bed, holding your spouse’s hand, with your kids around?

Ken, I didn’t see the original post but I had the same thought while running today. I knew George the same way I know you. I think George would have agreed with you. If I die racing - geez I hope not - feel free to tell my wife I’d prefer to have had her with me.

I spoke from my own perspective and it isn’t fair as I didn’t really know George except from others.

I think we can all agree that George’s loss was terrible and tragic. I don’t know what he would have wanted. I hope he enjoyed his last days and moments, which I am inclined to believe based on those who knew him.

It’s cool man. I think Ken was being forthright. When George would post on the usms forum he was wry and direct. But I don’t know either. Take care.