From the link you gave I get a page with five other links. When I click on the bi-law changes link I see that articles XX and XXI, sec 4 are unchanged.
So, what gives?
I think it’s Slowman’s version of the Hottie Thread.
XX no change XXI sect 4 no change
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Your question is confusing, Dan. The proposed revisions make no change to Article XX or Article XXI, Section 4, but these are not Sunshine policy provisions. These sections have to do with amending Bylaws.
This is exactly what I alluded to in another post. It seems too me, what is on the website is irrelevant. The ONLY relevant proposed changes is what is sent with the ballot. Also, because the changes are printed on a separate sheet from the ballot, how can one say what you voted for is what the sheet proposes? I’ll need to compare the ballot info to the website info, but I still think the effort is moot. It just seems to me, if you vote YES, by the time it is counted, what you voted YES on may be different than what you thought it was when you voted YES. Was that confusing?
I don’t have the ballot here, but since Slowman doesn’t have it, could someone transcribe it and post it here? Would that help?
Slowman:
I see the two articles as noted. As for the Sunshine Policy, I can’t tell whether it is “basically intact” or not.
Sorry not of more help.
yes, i agree with you, that there is a place on the site where the board is telling you why voting for #2 is a good thing, and what bylaws would have altered language. what you’re reading, however, is simply the reason why you should (from the board’s point of view) vote for it. there still is no “it” for which you can vote. there is no text of the actual amendment. am i missing something?
in order to cast a vote for something, i need to know one of two things:
- i need to see the text of the amendment. failing that…
- the bylaws as they will be once the amendment is passed.
if i have the second thing, i can divine the first thing.
so, we are in the middle of an election. ballots have been received. they’ve been cast, or discarded, or whatever. what i see on usat’s site, in terms of actual amendment language, is limited to the bylaws as they will actually read once the board’s proposals are passed (if they are passed).
now, a lot of people are now posting, and saying that yes, it is exactly as i’m describing. they’re seeing the same thing i’m seeing. are you seeing something different? i don’t want to go round and round. i agree with you, i do see that the board is saying that the second amendment allows them certain freedoms it doesn’t now have. maybe they thought better of it and decided only to show us amendment 1’s changes, because they didn’t think they could pass #2. maybe sometime later on certain board members changed their minds about #2, or couldn’t agree on specific language. i don’t know. i would just like to know if there is anything other than one set of proposed bylaws on the site should the board’s proposals be passed.
“The proposed revisions make no change to Article XX or Article XXI, Section 4, but these are not Sunshine policy provisions.”
sunshine policy is ARTICLE XXII
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“The ONLY relevant proposed changes is what is sent with the ballot.”
when you get a ballot in the mail it is common that only an abstract of the actual proposal/initiative/referendum is on the ballot. if you actually want to read the text you’ll have to go somewhere else (a website, for example).
does your ballot have the actual amendments on it? or just the board’s reasons why you should vote for it, and a list of the affected bylaws? does the ballot refer you to the website to read the actual text of the amendments?
i believe it does. so, go to the website to which the ballot refers you and read the changes. i believe the ONLY thing you will find is how the new bylaws will read if the board’s proposals are adopted. one set of bylaws. one. one pdf. not two, or three, or none. just one. so, as a voter, since the ballot refers you there, and since the website on several different pages refers you there, i’m assuming this document contains the results of YES votes to the board’s proposals. especially because the website specifically says this document contains the actual bylaw language if the board’s proposals are adopted.
Dan,
So are you hinting that we are missing something here or are you trying to counter the conspiracy theorists by basically saying "the vote is for what you see and nothing else.
Your posts have muddied the waters even more for me now.
Colin
Correct: only one “proposal” listed.
I did not realize the discrepency between what I was being convinced to vote on and want I was actually going to be able to vote on.
Cheers!
My reading of Article XXII notes several places in which the time frames for posting and approving minutes have been lengthened. Other than that, the only change I see is that the federation would not be required to hire someone to respond to questions on the forum.
looks good to me
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Surely on the ballot there is a checksum or md5 number of the pdf that contains the ammendments we are voting on? At least a version or document number? Tell me there is something on the ballot that allows us to confirm that what is on the web site is the same document we are voting on?
If USAT ran the USA presidential elections:
We will tell you the candidates when you get in the voting booth.
The candidates are Bush vs Kerry … no wait McCain vs Kerry … no wait Barbara Boxer vs Bush … good you voted … it turns out you voted Mr Tibbs as supreme dictator for life.
I clicked on the link for proposed changes, and Article XX and Article XXI section 4 and unchanged. I opened the pdf for the existing bylaws, and the pdf for the proposed changes in a second window and compared the Sunshine changes. Posting of minutes from 10 calendar days to 30 calendar days, and 15 calendar days to 45 calendar days. In section 4, eliminates the hiring or appointing of a person for the forum, relatively minor changes.
Am I missing something here? Haven’t got my ballot yet.
It can be tough for the non-lawyers of us to completely comprehend the meaning of the proposed ammendments so they put up an "outline of their plan. Looks alot like special interest lobbing come election time, take a proposal, chop it up, re-arrange the text, hide what you really want and send it out as a human intrest story (indian gaming, which I am all for, but who really knows anymore, are we paying them to operate their casino with our taxes?)
I am unable to find info on the second proposal other that this from their website link you provided: I cut the initial fluff to get to the good stuff.** PROPOSAL #2 - AMENDMENT OF THE BYLAWS** THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS WISHES TO BE ABLE TO AMEND THE BYLAWS WITH A TWO-THIRDS VOTE OF THE BOARD, EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING ARTICLES: ARTICLE VII – BOARD OF DIRECTORS SECTIONS 1-5, 7 – GENERAL DIRECTORS, ELECTION DISTRICTS, TERMS AND TERM LIMITS, VACANCIES AND REMOVAL OF A DIRECTOR ARTICLE XXI – ELECTIONS ARTICLE XXII – SUNSHINE POLICY We are urging you to approve these critical amendments to our bylaws and vote “yes” on Proposal #2. We believe this is consistent with the direction of our membership and still allows us the ability to react to our business environment. The January referendum will refer to the following bylaw article: ARTICLE XX Amendments to the Bylaws Section 1. Amendments to or Repeal of the bylaws. The Bylaws of USA Triathlon may be amended or repealed only by vote of the membership as specified in Article XXI, Section 4 below. Section 4. Amendment or Repeal of the Bylaws. With the sole exception of the vehicle for reapportionment contained in Article VII, Section 4 (a), there are three and only three methods for amendment or repeal of federation Bylaws: Standard Initiative Page 4 of 4 Special Initiative Vote to Approve Resolution by Board of Directors Now on the surface this does not look bad, in fact it looks as if the major changes (article VII,XI, and XII) made in the last petition are specifically being protected. I do however wonder about the rest of the bylaws, all 57 pages, and how they affect the membership. Why is information about petition 1 so prominent, but nothing specific about #2? Are they skimming over the listing of article XX because this is what petition 2 will give them the power to change, but listing it right after the bylaws not changed just to fool people. Article XX is exactly what we voted on last ballot, please look at the red section, how does it read to you? I bet this will allow them to take back the membership power to ammend bylaws.
I’m confused about what action we are supposed to take or can take.
“I am unable to find info on the second proposal other that this from their website link you provided”
yes, that’s the point. refer to my “forum readers - thank you” thread.
Sorry, Dan. Tried the link but I got a “…does not support this protocl…” message.
Frank
Hopefully you read to the end of the post, or check out my post in the USAT ammendments thread, there is something else going on.
I see what you mean, but does the bylaw open a back door to allow them to change the article XX later. It looks confusing enough that it was done on purpose. Maybe it is my own criminal mind, but it screams ulterior motive to me. These board members are not lacking in intelligence and neither are the lawyers involved, you watch there is something tricky here hidden in the background.
They say the January referendum will refer to Article XX, but on the other page article XX states no change.
What if petition 2 passes allowing them to change a different bylaw, which then allows them to go back with a 2/3rds board vote and change article XX all by themselves. They would not be lying as the actual petition does not change article XX.
Worst case, I am wrong and we are all happy. This is why I detest politics.
Sorry, but I have a hard time trusting middle age white males. Look at all of the scandals.