David Millar - EPO! News Flash

Triathlon Forum
22

I’m not saying drugs aren’t rampant or even that Millar is not a doper, it’s just that I can believe even if he is a doper he is as stupid as this story makes him out to be therefore, never having met the man and gauged his mental acuaty, I tend to doubt the story as told until I get more facts since I can not believe he could be this stupid. I’m of the opinion that if someone is doping, they are not going to a) confess even after 48 hours in the slammer and b) leave evidence in their house when they know the cops are coming for them.

I believe drugs are rampant in sports generally and cycling and particular but I also don’t believe everything I read in the paper, especially when it just doesn’t seem logical to me.

23

I think you are right to be suspicious. The whole story seems just a little too simple, or Millar is dumber than a rock.

matt

24

From L’Equipe

One of the riders charged, Philippe Gaumont, made a statement to the examining magistrate saying that Millar, who is a time-trial champion, had asked the team doctor, Jean-Jacques Menuet, to inject Gaumont and Cédric Vasseur with the same substance he had been given before winning the time-trial at Nantes in the 2003 Tour de France. Gaumont, who was fired in February, did not specify what the substance was other than being a “clear liquid.” He also was quoted as saying, “If Menuet agreed to give Vasseur and myself the injections it was because Millar asked him to, and as team leader he had a lot of power over the riders and Menuet.” .

Gaumont said Menuet did not supply banned drugs but, if riders obtained their own drugs, he informed them of the advantages of the substances and was willing to carry out injections. .

Menuet told l’Equipe he could make no comment while the investigation was under way. Menuet assists a French athletic sprints coach, Guy Ontanon, whose runners include European women’s 100-meter record-holder, Christine Arron, and the 2002 European 200-meter champion, Muriel Hurtis. .

Millar told Agence France-Presse in January: "All I can say is that it’s not a Cofidis problem, and it’s certainly got nothing to do with me. .

“The press are implying all sorts of things but I know it’s not a Cofidis problem.” .

The Scot, in Manchester for a World Cup track meeting, told The Guardian newspaper on Thursday: “It’s clear to me. There are three or four people in the team who have been complete idiots, but if you go into any work-place environment you will find three or four people who do stupid things, take risks. It’s scary how a few idiots can put everyone’s jobs in danger.” .

Millar said if the police really believed there was any collective wrongdoing, then they would have extended their investigation further. .

“It makes me very frustrated and angry when newspapers say there have been police monitoring us for months, listening to all our phone calls. If that was the case, they’d have raided our homes, stopped our cars.” . .

Gaumont was a team time-trial bronze medalist in the 1992 Olympics.

25

“But in some sports where the skill sets are so varied (soccer, basketball, hockey), there is just no advantage to cheating, because by enhancing one aspect like muscle building, you detract from others, such as quickness or endurance.”

I disagree with the above statement. Anything that can provide extra strength, quickness, speed and/or added recovery will provide an advantage, skill set notwithstanding. Basketball, hockey, soccer and plenty of other sports require basic endurance – and a lot of it. And some of these sports have long seasons that can really beat up a body. Anything that will help the body cope with the rigors of both the game and the length of the season will provide a significant advantage.

Athletes can overdo it. We’ve all seen baseball players who got so big in the offseason that they couldn’t swing the bat very well, only to trim down the next year and start putting up good numbers again. But any athlete in any sport can find a substance(s) that will improve their performance.

RP

26

Hey guys, sorry to disappoint, but pretty much everyone dopes to some degree in cycling.

Do you honestly think that your legs can go in March from this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/mar04/catalana/stage5/cycling-semanacatalana-54.jpg

To June to this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jun04/tourdesuisse04/stage9/image20.jpg

by riding a bike 7 hours a day? I don’t think so. Just do the basic math. Since this is a trained athlete, bike riding alone would have made his legs even slimmer (less muscle, leaner) than they would have been in March. So that leaves us with weight training. I doubt that he spent 4 hours a day in the gym, because then he will lose a fair amount of his aerobic ability. So is he pulling 4 hours in the gym then going for a 5-hour ride? When/how does he recover? Or was this the reason he couldn’t finish LBL?

Look I’m not picking on just him. But at the elite level biological doping vs chemical doping is just too hard to enforce. Genetic doping will be impossible, and it’s just around the corner. The latest New England Journal. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/350/26/2682. Sorry, you have to pay for the full article, but this is what body builders have been wanting since they started picking up stones.

How are you going to enforce this? This is a much bigger question than just doping in sport.

27

While I agree that top level athletes in every sport push the envelope to get the edge on their competition, I don’t think cheating is necessarily rampant. Some sports require extreme strength (football, sprints, bodybuilding, baseball hitters) so steroids are used; other sports focus on endurance/stamina (cycling, running, Itidarod) and doping is a problem. But in some sports where the skill sets are so varied (soccer, basketball, hockey), there is just no advantage to cheating, because by enhancing one aspect like muscle building, you detract from others, such as quickness or endurance.

Totally disagree, Soccer Players are big fans of doping from what I’ve read since they are just doing all out sprints up and down a field all day and I remember a survey a few years back that some obscene percentage of NHL players loaded up on ephedra containing cold medicines before each game.

28

The latest New England Journal. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/350/26/2682

The last line says it all

“Our results suggest the possibility that muscle bulk and strength could be therapeutically increased by the inactivation of myostatin in patients with muscle-wasting conditions.”

All you need is a small-drug inhibitor and you’d be running all the way to the bank - in record time

29

I have to agree with STP. It doesn’t make sense the way it has been reported. The paper says he was asked to cooperate in the Cofidis investigation as a witness, and then they say he was released from custody. Wait a minute! Where did he incriminate himself to the point that he went from witness to suspect?

If he were merely a witness the police would probably not interrupt him during a nice meal at a restaurant, but instead would arrange a time for him to come and see them “downtown at the station.”

I think they arrested him and took him downtown, and used the witness claim to keep the press at bay for a day until they could come up with formal charges or get the confession they sought.

There are some good readers’ comments linked from the related story on the velonews.com site.

30

Are you really that naive or have your head buried in the sand? Unfortunately, negative drug tests don’t mean a whole loy anymore.

It’s also a fact that there are PED’s out there that are undetectable at this time. Just look at the BALCO scandal with the THG.

There is a story in the Kansas city star today about Tim Montgomery. He has allegedly admitted to using HGH and “the clear”, which he refers to as a “magic potion.” “The clear” is THG. Montgomery has never tested positive. This all came from a “leak” during the grand jury testimony.

So, no. a negative test does not always mean that someone is not doping, and yes, there are products out there that are undetectable.

Time to pull your head out.

31

Thats scary. Just the other day I was speaking with a former pro cyclist. I asked how bad he thought this doping thing was. He said “everyone is doing it in one way or another” I asked how come no positive tests for some of the top guys. He thought there was stuff going on with genetics that is undetectable but crazy expensive so only the top, top guys have access to it. He also said since these were not “PED’s” as we know them those guys could honestly say they were not taking PED’s" I dont know how much of his comments were speculation, but that NE journal story certainly makes it sound possible.

32

But the point is that they are starting to understand this at the genetic level. Inhibitors can be tested for, genetics can’t.

BTW (to anyone) how do I make the pictures I referenced appear in the post?
Thanks

33

While I agree that top level athletes in every sport push the envelope to get the edge on their competition, I don’t think cheating is necessarily rampant. Some sports require extreme strength (football, sprints, bodybuilding, baseball hitters) so steroids are used; other sports focus on endurance/stamina (cycling, running, Itidarod) and doping is a problem. But in some sports where the skill sets are so varied (soccer, basketball, hockey), there is just no advantage to cheating, because by enhancing one aspect like muscle building, you detract from others, such as quickness or endurance.

Totally disagree, Soccer Players are big fans of doping from what I’ve read since they are just doing all out sprints up and down a field all day and I remember a survey a few years back that some obscene percentage of NHL players loaded up on ephedra containing cold medicines before each game.

And many basketball players dope too, they just prefer the “herbal” method :wink:

Not sure how that’s a performance enhancer, though.

34

Thats scary. Just the other day I was speaking with a former pro cyclist. I asked how bad he thought this doping thing was. He said “everyone is doing it in one way or another” I asked how come no positive tests for some of the top guys. He thought there was stuff going on with genetics that is undetectable but crazy expensive so only the top, top guys have access to it. He also said since these were not “PED’s” as we know them those guys could honestly say they were not taking PED’s" I dont know how much of his comments were speculation, but that NE journal story certainly makes it sound possible.

It’s one thing to understand genetics and design specific drugs, like a myostatin blocker. It’s another thing altogether to use gene therapy or other genetic manipulation to enhance performance. If your friend was refering to the latter I have to say I highly, highly doubt it.

35

More on Myostatin and little Bam-Bam.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/science/24muscle.html?ex=1088654400&en=caa1695e9f110761&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1088028614059&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2004/06_23_04.html

Definitely where it’s all heading, if it hasn’t already started.

36

But the point is that they are starting to understand this at the genetic level. Inhibitors can be tested for, genetics can’t.

Sorry - I meant a small molecule inhibitor. Something that will disrupt the action of the protein. I don’t think that would be an easy thing to test for - especially given the timing/delay that would be involved.

I think it’s easier to test for genetics. You will always be able to see signs of tinkering if you look hard enough

37

Why was Millar even using EPO? that stuff is so last year.

38

I doubt we can base anything on pictures, especially when lighting and whatnot changes appearances. A tan alone does alot for how ripped a person can look. I’ve lost 10lbs since march and now look ripped as hell in the legs and that’s only on 200 miles a week. I would never use the look of leaness as a drug indicator.

39

I should say every sport has its cheaters, including soccer (remember Maradona?), but…

Let’s put it this way-if I knew some fellow soccer players were using, I wouldn’t necessarily care since IMO any gain they see is offset by other losses, unless they are using EVERYTHING, in which case they’ll last about 1/4 season. It’s not just sprinting, it’s lasting 90 minutes never stopping (6-7 miles worth), jumping, THINKING, heading, sliding…then doing it again 3 days later, after a day or 2 of training. Isn’t it strange how all these sprinters and baseball playes tear their hammies so often? By making oneself bigger you are also making yourself more breakable.

Maybe I am not up to speed on the latest generation of PEDs, so I suppose science is developing some uber-drugs that could enhance it all. Like I said above, it’s my opinion.

40

I doubt we can base anything on pictures, especially when lighting and whatnot changes appearances. A tan alone does alot for how ripped a person can look.<<

That’s fair. And do I know unequivocally that there is doping going on? No. I have no special insight that others do not. I could try to explain that the likely hood of him putting on all that muscle without any fat is so contrary to what I have seen with his weight gains and losses over the years in off season, that I’m not sure how one can explain it. That it is virtually impossible to gain that kind of muscle and maintain aerobic fitness. But then I would start losing my point.

Because for me it’s not about finger pointing, chasing cyclists down, and putting them in a jail cell for a few nights. It’s about trying to find reasonable boundaries between what the sporting organizations/teams and fans expect from their athletes in terms of their results, and acknowledging what the athletes are actually going to do to get those results. Right now those two expectations are totally out of whack.

Always love to talk doping, but right now gotta go on business trip. Later.

41

actually i think he is raising a pretty good point. cofidis is surrounded by allegations of drug use and AFTER this comes out, millar is dumb enough to leave vials of the stuff around? if you were in the same position wouldn’t you say to yourself, hey, i better lay off the juice for a bit until this blows over? he is either galactically stupid or someone planted something…