Ok everyone here is my question- how trainable IS running? How much faster do people actually get with serious training?
A few obvious examples to how much genetics seems to matter in running:
Me- started out running a 1:50 half-marathon. Now after 3-4 years of serious training (with coach, training for tri 7-10 sessions/week), i can now do a 1:36. A solid improvement, but pro level times in the 1:10 range are not looming in my immediate futureMy brother in law. Overweight. Took 5 years off of running. Came back into running, runs comfortable 6 min/miles, and within a month of coming back is podiuming in local 10ks with 500 runners in them. (while still overweight)So the questions:
How much of running is trainable?How fast were the pro’s when they actually started?How long does it take to get x amount faster?How i propose to answer this:
Everyone post your running speeds over time. EVERYONE, especially people who are now fast. Go WAY back in your memory for how fast you were in the first year runningTry to post them in “non-triathlon half marathon equivalents” ie how fast you could have done/did a half marathon at various points. Use the table below to convert from triathlon times to normal non-triathlon times.
Label your first year of running as “Year 0” and then go forward from there to whatever year of training this is for youLabel each year from 1-10 on how hard you were training- 10 being “pro level” and 1 being “i ran a few times” You make your best guess as to what these numebers meanI will throw all the data in excel and publish a pretty chart, and then we can argue how much a Cervelo P4 would make it all invalid.I KNOW there a bunch of hard to track variables here- quality of training, subjectivity of 1-10 scale etc. But lets see what the data says anyayOk here is the conversion chart:
And here is my personal data:
Year 0: Training 1, Half Marathon 2:10
Year 1: Training 3, Half Marathon 1:50
Year 2: Trainging 5, Half Marathon 1:42
Year 3: Trainging 6, Half Marathon 1:40
Year 4: Training 7, half marathon 1:36
Sorry i think i need to clarify:
Its VERY clear that running is trainable from the “i cant run” to the “i can run moderately fast” range- ie starting at 11 min/mile and getting to 7:30/min miles. I myself can attest to this ,as can jackmottMy question is somewhat different- is it trainable from the “moderate” to the “fast” range? Ie if you start at 10 min/mile, then get to 7:30 min/mile has ANYONE ever gotten then down to 6 min/mile? Or are the 6 min/mile guys starting out as 7 min/mile guys? How fast was chrissie wellington back when she was just a civilian?
Im interested in data from everyone- but i think the most telling data will be from people who are now “really fast”- how fast were they when they started out?
Ive never been fast. 4 years of XC in high school, and I barely worked down to a sub 6mile, went from about… 5-10 to 6-4, 160-195 through the 4 years. Right now, I’m 24 at 6-5 205, I could probably run a single mile in about 6min even. I could probably run a 5k in about 20-21 minutes, my half marathon? 1:55ish. Those pace estimating charts are never even close with me. I drop out the bottom end the longer the distance. Its not like I dont try or train, Im at 40+mi/week, long runs up to 20mi, but still suck. dosent seem to matter how much I train and run, i just aint fast. for me, running is pretty much untrainable. Im just gonna say… Its different for everyone.
on a side note, anyone have any idea how to make me faster?
Year 0, May 2003: Just started running within the last 6 months, averaging 30km/week and ran a 1:36 half marathon at 165 pounds.
Year 5, May 2008 (same race): Serious training at this point, running 60-70km week, cycling a lot, and ran 1:20 half marathon at 148 pounds.
I didn’t run any half between the two races - or many stand-alone run races for that matter. My training from 0 to 5, increased from 2-3 hours week, to 10-12 hours week (bike and run) - plus losing a bunch of weight.
With all that training over the years, my gains don’t look too great. I’m guessing I have some natural endurance, but not natural speed??
I’ll be going for 6 minute miles next year so I will keep you posted =)
I think the answer is probably yes, most people can get down into the 6 minute range, it just may take them a lot of miles…and maybe not everyone can do those miles without injury (or arent willing to get skinny enouhg perhaps)
Sorry i think i need to clarify:
Its VERY clear that running is trainable from the “i cant run” to the “i can run moderately fast” range- ie starting at 11 min/mile and getting to 7:30/min miles. I myself can attest to this ,as can jackmottMy question is somewhat different- is it trainable from the “moderate” to the “fast” range? Ie if you start at 10 min/mile, then get to 7:30 min/mile has ANYONE ever gotten then down to 6 min/mile? Or are the 6 min/mile guys starting out as 7 min/mile guys? How fast was chrissie wellington back when she was just a civilian?
Im interested in data from everyone- but i think the most telling data will be from people who are now “really fast”- how fast were they when they started out?
I realize that this may not be something you want to do but it would work, haha
Ive never been fast. 4 years of XC in high school, and I barely worked down to a sub 6mile, went from about… 5-10 to 6-4, 160-195 through the 4 years. Right now, I’m 24 at 6-5 205, I could probably run a single mile in about 6min even. I could probably run a 5k in about 20-21 minutes, my half marathon? 1:55ish. Those pace estimating charts are never even close with me. I drop out the bottom end the longer the distance. Its not like I dont try or train, Im at 40+mi/week, long runs up to 20mi, but still suck. dosent seem to matter how much I train and run, i just aint fast. for me, running is pretty much untrainable. Im just gonna say… Its different for everyone.
on a side note, anyone have any idea how to make me faster?
Let me play the game properly now, going back to my 5k times over the past 3 years (which is how long I have been training)
year 1: 1:50 HM equivalent
year 2: 1:36 HM equivalent
year 3: 1:28 HM equivalent
I am 30 years old, 6’3", 175lbs with no running background before this other than a bit of basketball. Training not entirely consistent over those three years, at least one big 6 month break after year two.
Trianing was about 15mpw year 1, 20mpw year 2, 35mpw year 3
I should also note that my 5k times predict half marathon times that are faster than I can do =)
IIRC, my first 5k in HS cross country was around 19:45 after a summer of running. Approximately 5 years later I ran 15:32 in a road race which still stands as my PR. That was a few years ago but I havent really got much faster since then due to all this silly swimming and biking…
It is very trainable if you put in the effort. ME I have no natural talent. I’ll never be fast, but I’ve been decent.
When I was a high school senior my 5k pr was 20:11, I was 126 pounds and 5’8".
In college I actually started running-alot. I broke 100 mile weeks twice, but didn’t like it. Seemed like I was always running or beat down. Cut back to average about 70 mile weeks. I had no top end speed but could run forever.
5k pr 16:3X, 10 mile pr high 61min. weight 132-136.
Then I almost completely tore the tendons in my right ankle, and got mono. Couldn’t run for close to 7 months. Quit running when I could. I got fat. Orca fat. Over a six year period I gained 80 pounds.
Had a kid coming and didn’t want to be a fat dad. Started training again. At first I couldn’t run 1 mile at any pace. The bike saved my life. Lost a ton of weight, and am back down to (146-148lbs). Did a 5k this september in 18:40 something.That was on less than 15 miles a week.
I am currently doing about 45 mpw to train for a half marathon in the spring. If you run, you will get better and faster. If you hit a wall, you need to do something different, either race some shorter distances to get some speed or run further. I’m 31 now, so I’m hoping I can still improve for a couple of more years. I do wonder where I would be, if I had stuck with my training instead of becoming a super fatty.
2001: 5miler 36:04
2002: 5K 20:30 ← trained pretty hard for this one
2004: 5K 23:30 <-hung over
2005: 5K 18:07 <-spent winter avg’ing 70 mpw
2007: 13.1: 1:21:20
2008: 5K 18:06, then did 2 months of 5K specific training, then 16:58
What did you do in those 2 months of 5k specific training?
2001: 5miler 36:04
2002: 5K 20:30 ← trained pretty hard for this one
2004: 5K 23:30 <-hung over
2005: 5K 18:07 <-spent winter avg’ing 70 mpw
2007: 13.1: 1:21:20
2008: 5K 18:06, then did 2 months of 5K specific training, then 16:58
I doubt you will get sufficient data here to reach any kind of valid conclusion. IMO, with serious training most people could become very decent runners, but only a few would be able to excel. i.e. most people may be able to run around 6 minute miles, but substantially fewer would be able to get down to 5 minutes or less.
Without any structured training I have gotten much faster. But I didn’t start running until I was almost 45. I’m now 52 and just had my best year of running ever, yet I will never be able to be as fast as the top guys.
I think my first HM was 1:58
My most recent - and fastest was 1:39
I think I can still go faster as I ran my most recent HM with a broken big toe and that limited my speed a bit. In that race the winner of my AG ran 1:27 and I doubt I will ever be able to go that fast.
I think if I had started running about 10 years earlier I may have been able to go faster, but age is a limiting factor as well.
So the questions:
How much of running is trainable?
How fast were the pro’s when they actually started?
How long does it take to get x amount faster?
I think it is very trainable. I started off 235lbs (19 and 5’10) and couldn’t even jog a 1/4 mile, had to walk my 2 miles for exercise, then lost 80lbs and have ran 5k and 10k races and i was down to a 8min/mile. On sunday i have a 1/2 marathon and have been focusing on training for that with little bike riding in between and have it down to sub 7min/miles. It takes alot of miles and the right nutrition i think and you can get your pace down, i think for us triathletes it might be a little tougher with all the cross training but thats just my assumption. After this 1/2 marry in a few days, im going to start focusing my running on 5k and 10k distance (for tri’s) and get it down to 6:30min/miles if not lower. It just takes the right training i think.
i have no idea how fast the pros were, but most of them come from running backgrounds of some kind (alot are former swimmers and cyclists) so i would guess they were fast when they started.
I dont have data like you wanted, sorry, but i think it takes the right amount of training and nutrition to get X amount faster.
"What did you do in those 2 months of 5k specific training? "
Before that, my speedwork would be 20-40 minute tempo runs and maybe 5x1K or 5x1 mile at 5k pace, nothing shorter. I hadn’t been to a track since 2005.
From Sept-Thanksgiving I followed Daniels 5K program, doing 2 of the Q workouts/week from his book. Some examples would be:
4x 200m R (200m) + 3x1000m I (2’) + 2x 400m R (400m)
10x400m(R)
4x1k T (3’) + 6x200m R (200m) +2mile accel (accel means start at easy pace, then go 5 secs/400m faster each lap, ending at I pace for final 400m)
I don’t have hard data for you but can say that most elite runners have a similar story…in gym class one day in 10th grade we had to run a mile and I did a 4:45…then I joined the track team and by senior year PR’d with 4:08…
Most of the truly elite runners are very gifted and are pretty good without training.
I believe that I did a LOT with my level of giftedness (not a high one). I went from a 44 minute 10k after my first season as a runner (age 14) to a 33 minute 10k at age 18. Being elite wasn’t in the cards for me.
I do think that you might be on to something…You seem to be trying to predict a person’s ultimate potential by measuring their improvement over their first year or two of training. I think that’s completely valid.
A 4:08 mile is pimpin’!! In high school no less that’s huge. There are many very good and decent athletes that will never sniff a time anywhere near that.
