My understanding is that somewhere along the line, Dr. Daniels proposed a heart rate-based means of quantifying training stress (which is somewhat ironic, considering his focus on performance itself as the best indicator). Did this ever really catch on in running circles? Can anyone point me to a place on the web where I can learn more?
My understanding is that somewhere along the line, Dr. Daniels proposed a heart rate-based means of quantifying training stress (which is somewhat ironic, considering his focus on performance itself as the best indicator). Did this ever really catch on in running circles? Can anyone point me to a place on the web where I can learn more?
Andy,
I can’t point you to a web page but pages 38 through 41 of the second edition of Daniels’ Running Formula speak to this issue.
Dr. Daniels assigns point values on a per minute basis for running at specific percentages of VDOT as well as % of HRmax.
I would be willing to scan these four pages and send them to you if you would like.
Hugh
Looks like you’re going to have to buy the book. Pretty good book and you could use learning one or two things about run training 
My understanding is that somewhere along the line, Dr. Daniels proposed a heart rate-based means of quantifying training stress (which is somewhat ironic, considering his focus on performance itself as the best indicator). Did this ever really catch on in running circles? Can anyone point me to a place on the web where I can learn more?
Andy,
I can’t point you to a web page but pages 38 through 41 of the second edition of Daniels’ Running Formula speak to this issue.
Dr. Daniels assigns point values on a per minute basis for running at specific percentages of VDOT as well as % of HRmax.
I would be willing to scan these four pages and send them to you if you would like.
Hugh
Thanks for the kind offer, but the info you provided was already enough to convince me to not include this in a presentation I’ve been asked to give on “quantifying training stress” (largely because it hasn’t been around all that long).
Looks like you’re going to have to buy the book. Pretty good book and you could use learning one or two things about run training
Hey, I’m tempted, if only because my wife is currently training for a marathon.
I tell you what… if you don’t like it, I will refund you for the purchase. If you do like it, you refund me for buying Hunter Allen’s book
Do you have this one for swimming? I use it and like it. Might be of use for your presentation.
“Coaches’ Quarterly”, September 1995, by Rich Sharp, Ph.D., ICAR Director (and adapted from Sharp, R.L. Prescribing and evaluating interval training sets in swimming: a proposed model. Journal of Swimming Research. 9:36-40, 1993).
http://www.hy-tekltd.com/User_Guides_HTML/SwTM4/HTML/index.html?workoutstatistics.htm
Andy,
Just to give you a bit more information about his system here are a few point values to ponder.
1 minute at 100% VDOT = 1 point as one might expect 30 minutes = 30 points
1 minute at 90% VDOT = .723 points
1 minute at 80% VDOT =.467 points
1 minute at 70% VDOT = .267 points
1 minute at 60% VDOT = .110 points
Hugh
Do you have this one for swimming? I use it and like it. Might be of use for your presentation.
“Coaches’ Quarterly”, September 1995, by Rich Sharp, Ph.D., ICAR Director (and adapted from Sharp, R.L. Prescribing and evaluating interval training sets in swimming: a proposed model. Journal of Swimming Research. 9:36-40, 1993).
http://www.hy-tekltd.com/User_Guides_HTML/SwTM4/HTML/index.html?workoutstatistics.htm
No, I hadn’t heard of that one (although I do know Rick from our days at BSU together…in fact, way back in the fall of 1977 he administered the very first VO2max test that I ever performed). I’m guessing that it hasn’t seen widespread use?
FWIW, the methods I presently intend to discuss are:
-
Foster’s “session RPE” (a subjective method)
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TRIMP (an objective, heart rate based method)
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Rusko’s “EPOC” (also an objective, heart rate based method)
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TSS (an objective, performance based method)
The first three have received more use in scientific studies (esp. TRIMP) and/or commercial attention (e.g., Suunto’s T6) than TSS, but I figure that I wasn’t asked to talk just because of them.
Andy,
Just to give you a bit more information about his system here are a few point values to ponder.
1 minute at 100% VDOT = 1 point as one might expect 30 minutes = 30 points
1 minute at 90% VDOT = .723 points
1 minute at 80% VDOT =.467 points
1 minute at 70% VDOT = .267 points
1 minute at 60% VDOT = .110 points
Hugh
See, now that’s quite interesting, because if you force a fit to a power function you get an exponent of just over four. I might want to include that in my presentation after all…
I tell you what… if you don’t like it, I will refund you for the purchase. If you do like it, you refund me for buying Hunter Allen’s book
No deal, because I’m sure that I would like it.
After looking at them, I thought that the point values might get your attention.
Hugh
My understanding is that somewhere along the line, Dr. Daniels proposed a heart rate-based means of quantifying training stress (which is somewhat ironic, considering his focus on performance itself as the best indicator). Did this ever really catch on in running circles? Can anyone point me to a place on the web where I can learn more?
Andrew, I’ve yet to hear of a runner actualy use this. Your best bet is to go to www.letsrun.com and post the same question on the forum. At first it will get you nowhere, so then you assume alternate aliases (one of the beauties of the site) and mention that these alternate aliases are curious as well. If that fails to draw attention you create even more aliases and start an argument with yourself (ie…That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of…Oh yeah, well you’re a poo head. I took 45 seconds off my 5k time by using his system). If you’re lucky, Jack Daniels (Jtupper) himself might even respond.
You think I’m joking, but this is a skill worth learning in the information age. How do you think politicians get grass roots movements started?
hmmm … 4.3, 3.9 they’re both close enough to 4 
Is 100% VDOT right at Vo2max BTW? I know nadda about running …
-
Foster’s “session RPE” (a subjective method)
-
TRIMP (an objective, heart rate based method)
-
Rusko’s “EPOC” (also an objective, heart rate based method)
-
TSS (an objective, performance based method)
what do EPOC and TSS stand for?
Do you think any of these makes a hill of beans more than the other when used as an input into a dose response model. Whether that model by a first or second order time decay, step change, or even an “eyeball” model.
I’ve not seen anything publushed along these lines so it seems an open question, my intuition keeps telling me it doesn’t. Or rather that it doesn’ within the constraints of the current systems.
Barry,
Awesome: This explains letsrun. A lot. I can’t believe I hadn’t thought of that … Thanks.
Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption
TSS is training stress score
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I TRIED google and look what you got me
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