Crossfit presentation: need factual data for Q&A session

Triathlon Forum
1

I am attending a presentation on Crossfit tomorrow and am looking forward to hearing to hearing a talk about fitness in general and specifically Crossfit in its various forms.

Having said that I think it’s inevitable that someone makes the comment that Crossfit “Endurance” is a suitable replacement for aerobic training, and that a Crossfit trained athlete can perform in endurance sport just as well as a sport specific trained athlete. While I “KNOW” this is not true, help me with factual data as to why it’s not and help me formulate my question to the moderator and presenter… I’ll only get one shot. I’m not anti-Crossfit by any means, in fact I think it’s an amazing “flavor” of exercise branding and packaging, but I do disagree on alot of the “endurance” claims I’ve heard.

Also looking to hear opposing viewpoints here on ST.

thanks

2

One convincing piece of factual data would be the complete lack of top level endurance athletes using the Crossfit approach.

3

It is the job of the group making the claim to support it. Not the job of those
questioning it to refute it.

If they have any peer reviewed data to back up their claims, then ask to see
it. If they don’t, then they’re trying to prove stuff through assertion, which
is very successful in politics… :wink:

-Jot

4

It is the job of the group making the claim to support it. Not the job of those
questioning it to refute it.

If they have any peer reviewed data to back up their claims, then ask to see
it. If they don’t, then they’re trying to prove stuff through assertion, which
is very successful in politics… :wink:

-Jot

This.

Just ask to see the support for the claims they’re making. try not to sound like a dick, just say “hey, that sounds cool, can you point me to where they tested that?”

5

I am attending a presentation on Crossfit tomorrow and am looking forward to hearing to hearing a talk about fitness in general and specifically Crossfit in its various forms.

Having said that I think it’s inevitable that someone makes the comment that Crossfit “Endurance” is a suitable replacement for aerobic training, and that a Crossfit trained athlete can perform in endurance sport just as well as a sport specific trained athlete. While I “KNOW” this is not true, help me with factual data as to why it’s not and help me formulate my question to the moderator and presenter… I’ll only get one shot. I’m not anti-Crossfit by any means, in fact I think it’s an amazing “flavor” of exercise branding and packaging, but I do disagree on alot of the “endurance” claims I’ve heard.

Also looking to hear opposing viewpoints here on ST.

thanks

I am also interested in cross fit and the claims. Please report back the answers to your questions.

The workouts sound fun, but they also sound very short from what a friend tells me.

6

Just be ready for the Mark Allen references. I like how they say crossfit champions are fittest men in the world and IM people aren’t because MArk Allen couldn’t benc 95 pounds. I wonder how many cross fit champions could do a sub 9 hour Ironman or even a 2.4 mile swim.

The fittest man in the world concept is based on how you measure, not truely being the fittest of anything.

7

The local CF folks live 2 houses down from us. I haven’t talked to them about their ‘endurance’ program. I’m not really going to answer your question as I don’t have factual data. But, my thoughts on their endurance program or at least some of the CF literature that I’ve read here and elsewhere lead me to a few questions as well.

The poster who asked what ‘high level’ endurance athletes do they have using their method probably asks the best question. But, then there is the question of defining high level.

I have not read some of the studies about HIIT (high intensity interval training) or CF and it’s applicability to endurance sports like IM. I suspect that a lot of the quoted studies use mildly trained or even untrained participants. If that is the case then yes, subjecting them to interval training of any type is likely to yield better improvement than just letting them cruise around in the same mode that they have been…you are adding a different training load, so they should get better.

I would ask how many athletes have they taken from being top-20 (as an example) to top-5 with no other change to their training other than replacing some workouts w/ CF Endurance.

What CF in Austin has done better than just about every other ‘boot camp’ or HIIT approach is to create a community…almost with a cult following.

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I’m hoping that we’ll get Dr. Coggan and others to weigh in here, because being in the Army I see a fairly large number of crossfit-related injuries, i.e. too many people doing too much, too hard, too soon. Without careful guidance/supervision the whole thing just strikes me as a recipe for disaster.

9

You will probably have a tough time in the ‘cult’ of crossfit trying to challenge this notion. I have done the classes, been through the websites and as long time personal trainer/coach, I am all about the variables involved. The thing is, they have valid points in the fact that MANY endurance athletes could benefit from a better strength and conditioning program than sitting on a few machines rapping out a few reps here and there. Addressing key weak muscle groups, filling in the kinetic chain that is generally disrupted in the majority because you have people coming off the couch into the sport of tri and have limited body awareness skills, but can get out and swim, ride and run for hours.
But like someone else said…show me a top level triathlete that got there on their method. They will claim it is only a matter of time. It depends on what you consider a successful result from crossfit, finishing the event?. There are people at the health club I work at, that can go and complete a Oly tri if they just showed up, purely on the merits of their general overall fitness ability from doing spin, boot camp classes etc. They might or might not get shin splints, a side stitch, or something else who knows. Are there people training with too high of volumes relative to their work/life schedules and it is actually hindering their progression? Sure. So to say that high volume is a crummy approach to endurance sport is relative. Shorter concise training with added attention to overall body strength would benefit that person.
Can a crossfitter do mostly crossfit and do an IM? prob so. Will he be competitive? possibly. But part of the problem is in exactly their approach of the workouts being extremely random with variable volumes. This can create an inconsistancy in training trying to do your track workout the day after 400 speed squats ( done in sets) or 6 sets max deadlift. I found I compromised quality training days due to lingering soreness. For some, it does enlighten them to a threshold of discomfort they have not pushed themselves to and could be hindering their performance in tri’s. I come from a background of bicycle racing so this was nothing new to me.
Not sure where I am going with this. I definitely havent done all the research MR McKenzie has listed in his interview and therefore could see where I could be wrong on all this. But they are merely addressing a component many athletes lack. Intensity and strength. Some people think they are pushing a 8 but they have been so inactive for years or dont fully know what a true 8-9-10 effort is. I have seen it in coaching bike racers. And when they finally cross over to that level…they race different.
I did do Canada IM the same year McKenzie did, 2004. He did it his crossfit style and posted an 11:33 for his first IM. I trained myself traditionally, 9:54 for my first. Doesnt say much because again, the variables, I had a background in bike racing and had tons more miles in my legs. My wife saw a guy when I went to Kona, stop on the run out of town, walk into Burger King and get a whopper and milkshake. Sat on the curb for 45’ then got up and take off. the first person I met years back, said he went up to his room on Alii Dr and took a 2 hour nap. They both ‘finished’ the World Championships…so it is all relative. I have clients that all can deadlift, bench, leg press etc more than me…but are left behind very quickly when the tempo or incline go up.
Just depends what you are trying to compare. Problem is the crossfitters that don’t understand( and they teach this part) that what the philosophy is , is that we(traithletes) ARE specialists in our sports, just as a football player, golfer, track runner, marathon runner, all are. They call us ‘fringe’ athletes because of the specificity. Yet it is when they lose site of this and claim they are superior ‘athletes’…whe nthey should just say superior ‘crossfitters’ . Crossfit is saying they are ALL a’rounders and can show up to participate in generally anything and be pretty good at it. That would be generally true. But show me a 2:07 marathoner caring whether he can back squat 400lbs and if that will make him any faster. Are there things that if he didnt run 120 miles a week that would make him faster if addressed, most likely…but it isnt 100 pull ups, 200 push ups 300 squats.
It is all relative! They apply alot of what people don’t do. Quality concentrated intervals. I have people also trained on 9-10hrs a week posting 10:30-11hr IM’s, its doable. A crossfitter though prob can’t shoot a rifle between hearbeats like a bi-athlete can, so then does that mean they arent really a complete athlete? Ok…too long and I’m prob not making sense now. There are things that some could learn from Crossfit, but also caution should be applied as not all the trainers ( just like in my world of personal training) have that kinesthetic awareness and the ability to spot bad form.

10

It is the job of the group making the claim to support it. Not the job of those
questioning it to refute it.

Try to keep your comments on religion in the lavender room :slight_smile:

11

It is the job of the group making the claim to support it. Not the job of those
questioning it to refute it.
Try to keep your comments on religion in the lavender room :slight_smile:
Whatever you say, you FSM weirdo. :wink:

-Jot

12

:slight_smile:

Touche.

Or should I say “ramen”

13

Or should I say “ramen”

I believe that is pronounced: delicious.

:slight_smile:

-Jot

14

Hey everyone,

First forum post here, glad to meet you all!

Maybe I’m what you’re looking for? I’m a die-hard Crossfit’er, if thats a word. I’ve been doing Crossfit for just over 2 years. It’s taken me from being in “good” shape, to the best shape of my life and what I consider elite fitness shape. I can get into that in another post, or conversation, if needed.

I recently (within the year), got an interest in endurance sports, specifically Triathlons. I did my first one last fall, it was the Tri For Fun in Pleasanton, CA. Prior to my race, I did nothing to train but Crossfit, not CF Endurance, just strictly Crossfit. That means no time in the water, no “run specific” workouts, and probably 2-3 short road rides. I wanted to see if Crossfit can back up it’s claims as preparing athletes for anything and everything. Obviously I didn’t expect to excel or place in my first race, but I did expect to do well. To make a short story long, I did pretty well, finished in 1:05, had some trouble on the swim, not surprising as I hadn’t swam (for any distance) in over 8 years. The bike and run felt great. I was HOOKED!

Since that race, I’ve devoted more of my training to Triathlon specific, I joined the Forward Motion Race Club from NorCal. I find myself struggling with which approach to take. Meaning, traditional endurance training schedule, or giving “Crossfit Endurance” a go. I still Crossfit full time (3-5 days a week), but now I spend time in the pool, open water, bike trainer, and road running. My “Crossfit” friend/peers suggest to go with CF Endurance, versus my “tri” friends, who still take a more traditional approach.

As far as general fitness, Crossfit yields amazing, if not other-wordly results. The method works. There is no gimmick, it’s straight forward hard work, commitment, and results. PM or email if you ever have questions, I’m a Crossfit Level 1 certified trainer, if interested.

Anyways, just thought I’d weigh in on the conversation and give and get input.

Take care!

15

StavrosJK,

The answer to the question that you ask is: somewhere in between. Crossfit, in general, will help your threshold fitness for triathlons. But nothing really replaces some hard swim sets, quality saddle time and a long run here and there.

I actually like Crossfit a lot. I go 1-2 times per week, in your area. But you can’t learn to hold an aero position for 1-3 hours without doing it.

I am an avid believer that there can be a balance between Crossfitting (or any meaningful functional weight lifting) and endurance training. It doesn’t have to be either or. Why can’t it be both? Crossfit your socks off then go for that run :slight_smile: For myself, I just don’t go as heavy with some of my leg movements because I feel like I run with weights when I do, and the soreness the next day can ruin a good ride or what have you.

Thats all I got :slight_smile:

Jon

16

(Disclaimer: this is all from an intellectual stand point based on what I have heard and read from CF, I have not done a CF workout)
In CF rest is as important as work. The idea is to push new limits with each short workout and this requires you be fully rested. According to CF, doing a ten mile run wears down your body so you are not able to recover enough to work hard enough to gain the benefits from your next CF workout. So, saying you do CF but also get in some runs means you are not doing CF. You are adding high-intensity workouts and strength training to your routine. I don’t think there is anything wrong with this. Actually, I think this is the best approach; it is just not the CF approach.

17

Eh, wrong…sorry, I have to disagree. Read up on “What Is Crossfit”, specifically the section on defining fitness, “World Class Fitness in 100 words”, and the “Sport” section. CF encourages to “play and learn new sports”. Crossfit is not an end, it’s a means to an end.

Many other references to site, but this should get you started.

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“Multisport athletes should train no more than 2 workouts per week per sport on this site . PERIOD! Follow anything else and you are not following this site correctly. (Crossfit endurance)”

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“Multisport athletes should train no more than 2 workouts per week per sport on this site . PERIOD! Follow anything else and you are not following this site correctly. (Crossfit endurance)”
I think we’re saying the same thing, basically if you’re an endurance athlete, you have a clear idea what your “other” sport is. Regardless, it just makes sense to try new things, play new sports, etc. If it wasn’t for that idea, I wouldn’t have found triathlons!

20

Hey everyone,

First forum post here, glad to meet you all!

Maybe I’m what you’re looking for? I’m a die-hard Crossfit’er, if thats a word. I’ve been doing Crossfit for just over 2 years. It’s taken me from being in “good” shape, to the best shape of my life and what I consider elite fitness shape. I can get into that in another post, or conversation, if needed.

Take care!
Is this the Stavros who is a firefighter in SR? Who is a paid CF Trainer in the East Bay (Devil?). The same Stavros who swam for Diablo Valley College? The same Stavros who is in insane shape and could do a sprint tri in his sleep - as ALL FIT PEOPLE COULD?

Sprint Tris are for newb fat people. Do Wildflower Long Course next year on ‘just CF mainpage WODs’ and come back and tell us how it prepared you.