Coronary Calcium Score (update)

Hi Matt J.
I have posted in other posts on this issue and as a result, I’m very reluctant to engage. I would suggest looking at the following at the science behind heart disease (coronary artery disease) and a whole food, plant-based diet. There are lots of resources out there for lay people (if that’s you) and lots of peer reviewed science if you are savvy with reading the scientific literature (pubmed). Some suggestions for where to start:

Read “prevent and reverse heart disease” by Esselstyn and/or “china study” by Campbell and/or “How not to die” by Greger

Watch “Forks over knives” documentary- streams for free on website

Watch videos/read blog on nutrition facts.org
Listen to any podcast with Kim Williams, MD

Tons more ways to access this information. Your MD should know, but as you can see even from the posts above, it is a blind spot for our society and culture which includes our physicians.

The leading cause of death among cardiologist is heart disease just like everyone else.

Heart disease is universal with a western diet by age 10.

“There are 2 kinds of cardiologists- vegans and those that haven’t read the science”

This topic is triggering and I am not going to engage a debate (again) here. I do feel morally obligated to share.
Take it or leave it- but try to know for yourself.
Best wishes to you!

Thanks for your post, endurer.

Going plant based is one option I’m considering.

Doc already has me off of caffeine and gluten, so most edible joy has already been eliminated.

I really just want to be French. Smoke, eat lots of butter and bacon, and live to be 100.

Count me as a person who learned about calcium screening from a thread on here last year. With both my mom and grandma dying of sudden heart attacks, it was a no brainer to schedule an apt. Of course, that appointment was just a “why yes, I agree you should have the screening done” appointment, so now my screening isn’t until late Nov. My doc warned me that if my score is anything over zero, he will be giving me drugs. So, I’m pretty nervous too. I’m 54 and female. I’ll be following this thread–you sure aren’t alone in all this.

Thank you to all the people who have been so forthcoming about their heart issues, and for giving sound, solid advice. It still amazes me that I had to learn about this process via a forum on a triathlon site, and not my doctor.

–Meg

Hi - Haven’t read through comments yet, but if they have not looked for a semicircular canal dehiscence in one or or both ears, they should. That can cause the symptoms your are having. And I too just found out my calcium score is higher than it should be. Waiting for a cardio consult to figure out what that means and what I can do. Hope you feel better.

Haha. I get that. But like so many things in life those feel good for a moment then you kinda feel like shit later. In my experience there has been a lot of pleasure and joy in eating and living this way. It is an adventure. And there’s no hangover. 😊

semicircular canal dehiscence.

Wow, never heard of that. Do you know how this is assessed/diagnosed? I don’t have hearing loss (per testing) but I do have a muffled sound whenever the pulsatile tinnitus shows up. Doc thought I had Meniere’s Disease (except for the hearing test being ok)

hi! I believe it is a specialized temporal CT that can diagnose it. It is often misdiagnosed as Menieres too.

Count me as a person who learned about calcium screening from a thread on here last year. With both my mom and grandma dying of sudden heart attacks, it was a no brainer to schedule an apt. Of course, that appointment was just a “why yes, I agree you should have the screening done” appointment, so now my screening isn’t until late Nov. My doc warned me that if my score is anything over zero, he will be giving me drugs. So, I’m pretty nervous too. I’m 54 and female. I’ll be following this thread–you sure aren’t alone in all this.

Thank you to all the people who have been so forthcoming about their heart issues, and for giving sound, solid advice. It still amazes me that I had to learn about this process via a forum on a triathlon site, and not my doctor.

–Meg
Your Dr. Sounds like a tape recording of my doc from 4 years ago.

However. My screening only took a couple of days to get done.

Here in Nashville I called on Friday morning and got in that afternoon. $50

Dale:

Thanks for being such a great resource.

I’m interested in your viewpoint regarding the role of statins in turning soft plaque to hard plaque; from what I’ve been able to gather, you can expect ~10% increase in your calcium score AFTER starting statins from this phenomenon.

If what we see in masters endurance athletes with elevated scores is a result of the damaged arteries calcifying (Peter Attia’s description), then I don’t follow the logic in starting a statin to see a further increase in that score.

I’ve not been able to find any evidence in the literature regarding any treatment that demonstrates a decrease in CAC scores; the only mention is anecdotal in concentration camp survivors who were starved demonstrating a reversal of CAD (of course, they weren’t doing CAC scores then). However, once they resumed a normal diet, it returned.

Jeff

I learned about particle repositioning over 30 years ago in medical school. This is a cool video. It allows patients to do what I do in the office at home. I teach people how to do something somewhat different at home but this seems more effective.

When I arrived where I practice now I was local particle repositioning doctor for about 20 years. The local ENT guy was an old codger who didn’t seem to have learned anything new in a long time and didn’t do it.

The most common type of particle generated vertigo responds to this maneover (sic) but there are a few rarer types that don’t and sometimes an ENT can help with a different maneover .

Dan has graciously linked this thread to the ‘Hot Forum Topics’ so people can see the links and comments regarding Coronary Artery Calcium Scoring.

many, thanks dan-

i have never before been accused of exhibiting grace. i think i said it once.

Grace is grace despite of all controversy. (Lucio in Shakespeare’s Measure for Measure)

Dale:

Thanks for being such a great resource.

I’m interested in your viewpoint regarding the role of statins in turning soft plaque to hard plaque; from what I’ve been able to gather, you can expect ~10% increase in your calcium score AFTER starting statins from this phenomenon.

If what we see in masters endurance athletes with elevated scores is a result of the damaged arteries calcifying (Peter Attia’s description), then I don’t follow the logic in starting a statin to see a further increase in that score.

I’ve not been able to find any evidence in the literature regarding any treatment that demonstrates a decrease in CAC scores; the only mention is anecdotal in concentration camp survivors who were starved demonstrating a reversal of CAD (of course, they weren’t doing CAC scores then). However, once they resumed a normal diet, it returned.

Jeff

Once identified, behaviors can modify plaque and statins do exactly that-turn soft plaque *(that can become vulnerable and rupture) into hard plaque that is stable. There is increased risk with more plaque burden of all kinds, but risk actually goes down significantly when there is less soft plaque. It’s all about risk management at that point not at all about lowering your calcium score. The disease process really starts early in life and there is cumulative damage to the vessels over time made worse by so many things…

All scores will increase over time. Identifying CAD plaque and quantifying it can allow a patient to try to take better care of themselves going forward-eat better, exercise more *(if needed-although less here in the triathlon world) and for many, but not all-taking a medication to lower long term cardiac risk like a statin.

Dr. Attia is a great champion for heart disease and I enjoy his videos. He does help people learn about the disease and the process.

Talking about heart disease in general.
https://youtu.be/IbSHHESbm5U?si=1IK8Sv8WcPSSF70D

Talking about CAC
https://youtu.be/Z7MrZRInjvI?si=5VtJKzL-TAv1yQe6

CAC discussion starts ~ 1:11:00
https://youtu.be/W1geXgNEG_0?si=jKHLzr-UMEQQWGn4

I would suggest looking at the following at the science behind heart disease (coronary artery disease) and a whole food, plant-based diet. There are lots of resources out there for lay people (if that’s you) and lots of peer reviewed science if you are savvy with reading the scientific literature (pubmed). Some suggestions for where to start:

Read “prevent and reverse heart disease” by Esselstyn and/or “china study” by Campbell and/or “How not to die” by Greger

Watch “Forks over knives” documentary- streams for free on website

Watch videos/read blog on nutrition facts.org
Listen to any podcast with Kim Williams, MD

The leading cause of death among cardiologist is heart disease just like everyone else.

Heart disease is universal with a western diet by age 10.

“There are 2 kinds of cardiologists- vegans and those that haven’t read the science”

All adults should consume a healthy diet that emphasizes the intake of vegetables, fruits, nuts, whole grains, lean vegetable or animal protein, and fish and minimizes the intake of trans fats, red meat and processed red meats, refined carbohydrates, and sweetened beverages. For adults with overweight and obesity, counseling and caloric restriction are recommended for achieving and maintaining weight loss.
Everyone should absolutely understand that any non- heart healthy diet is very significantly contributory to CAD and soft plaque formation. There is no argument from me that plant based, dash, ornish and mediterranean diets all are much better than most western diets. But diet can only lower risk by about 15%. Statins work adjunctively with diet to lower risk and actually work far better absolutely.

And it is awfully difficult to modify patients behavior-especially eating. People do like to eat…

  1. LDL isn’t the best metric for identification of heart disease, it’s actually the number of LP(a) particles as the primary driver. Amgen has a drug in a clinical trial to reduce LP(a) and thus slow the progression of coronary artery disease (CAD). I don’t want to get too technical here, so here’s a link about it if you want to read up: https://www.amgen.com/...w-about-lipoproteina

  2. PSK9 Inhibitors is the only treatment know to reduce LP(a) concentration, but most insurance won’t pay for it, so the best alternative option is a statin that reduces your total LDL number. Interestingly, statins increase the LP(a) concentration; however, this risk is overwhelmed by the benefit of total LDL decrease. For what it’s worth, my cardiologist has me on 40mg of Rouvastatin and 10mg of Ezetimibe to keep my LDL under 70. And yes, I take CoQ10 to offset muscle fatigue.

  3. People who exercise generally have better plaque composition. There’s a ton of research in this area using athletes over age 50, but my takeaway was the process of exercise functions similar to a statin in that it turns soft plaque into a safer denser plaque. It’s the dense plaque that gets shown in your calcium score, not the soft plaque, so ironically people with a lower calcium can in some cases be at more risk. Lastly, athletes tend to build collateral pathways to promote blood flow leading to my next finding.

  4. Stress test results and METS achieved have prognostic charts similar to calcium score charts. Based on my calcium score, I was in the bottom 5% with the highest risk. Based on my stress test, I’m at the top 5% with the lowest risk.

Overall, I think there’s A LOT still being learned about CAD in athletes, but exercise serves as a protective mechanism which could enable us to live to be 100 years old with arteries full of dense calcium. Perhaps even taking a statin is redundant and unnecessary, but we aren’t far enough along our learning cycle to say that with confidence. It sucks that you were dealt a bad hand, but realize it’s not all gloom and doom. Just keep doing what you enjoy and follow your cardiologist’s advice to slow the progression of the disease and calcify the soft plague. Good luck!

I think there is always more to learn about CAD. But once risk is identified, there are coronary vessels that have plaque and taking a statin is the BEST known treatment for mitigating risk. Once treated and at lower risk, progression is slowed and plaque becomes more stable. Then you can not only enjoy exercise but also know there is truly lower risk. And I’d say were are certainly far along enough to say that confidently.

Stress tests are done to evaluate whether there is elevated risk from a physiologic standpoint. Is there a significant blockage causing EKG changes suggesting higher risk? You can certainly have higher or lower risk with elevated coronary scores and that’s why patients with high numbers get additional testing to re-classify risk.

I also agree that Lp(a) and ApoB are truly important and help identify risk. We are still learning the best way to treat elevated numbers for these. This may be a bit busy, but perhaps helpful to some.

https://www.howardluksmd.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/apob-heart-disease.png

I am no cardiologist but two of our pts have had strokes with catheter angiograms. I would take the non invasive route.

My wife and I always have ate relatively healthy. Red meat used to be once or twice a week. But most meals had some meat.

We now have converted to Mediterranean diet. Our grocery bill is way less than pre pandemic despite all the food inflation and the food is actually pretty good. I am trying to live like a Sardinian peasant did one hundred years ago. Unfortunately I still get around in my truck.

After obtaining my coronary calcium score, and finding out it was high, my cardiologist had suggested an angiogram. I asked for coronary CT angiography but insurance would not pay for it. Since my concern for potential coronary blockages was high, I told the cardiology office I’d pay for the test out of pocket. It’s amazing the difference in prices among the different imaging centers in the area. Some as high as $2400 for this test. I found one for $760 and proceeded to have this done two days ago.

Coronary CT angiography is a quick test but can require you to get there an hour beforehand so they can give you medicine to lower your heart rate. My resting heart rate was 42, so I didn’t need the pre-CT med and was able to proceed straight to the test after an IV. The CT technologist said they have had to cancel people’s scans previously because they were unable to get their heart rates low enough to obtain quality scans

Today, I was supposed to go in for an echo of my heart and a treadmill stress test. I have a tear at the myotendinous junction in my right calf so I was unable to do the stress test. When I first walked in for my echo, the tech asked if I’d seen the results of my angiogram. I had not and she proceeded to tell me it was “abnormal with an 80-90% blockage”. I asked which vessel and she said “your circumflex, but that was the only vessel with blockage”. This was confusing to me because my coronary calcium score broke down the score (or calcium) for each coronary artery and my score was very high for my left anterior descending and a little less for my right coronary artery. All other coronary arteries were scored as “zero”. She was nice enough to ask the cardiologist if he would go ahead and see me today since my angiogram was read as abnormal.

When I saw the cardiologist, he started off by saying “your echo was normal except you have an ‘athlete’s heart’ and this is because you are a runner”. Next, he says “now let’s talk about your angiogram”. At this point, I was sure he was about to explain that I needed a stent placed. Instead, he says “you have no blockages anywhere”. This was a HUGE relief and he proceeded to explain the shape of my circumflex artery made it appear to have a blockage when in fact it was actually not blocked at all. He showed it to me on my angiogram.

So, the coronary calcium score was a good learning lesson and forced me to dig deeper into my cardiac health. Looks like I’m one of those endurance athletes who has a high calcium score but open arteries. I’m thankful for the knowledge and expertise of these heart specialists

That’s great news to hear!
Looks like tonight is a celebration-
:slight_smile:

Knowledge is powerful

Have any Canadians here travelled to the US to have this done? Any issues with doing that?

Here in Canada, you first have to convince your doc to send you to a heart specialist, and if they agree to that, then wait a year+ to see said specialist, and then try to convince them that you need the test…

After obtaining my coronary calcium score, and finding out it was high, my cardiologist had suggested an angiogram. I asked for coronary CT angiography but insurance would not pay for it. Since my concern for potential coronary blockages was high, I told the cardiology office I’d pay for the test out of pocket. It’s amazing the difference in prices among the different imaging centers in the area. Some as high as $2400 for this test. I found one for $760 and proceeded to have this done two days ago.

Coronary CT angiography is a quick test but can require you to get there an hour beforehand so they can give you medicine to lower your heart rate. My resting heart rate was 42, so I didn’t need the pre-CT med and was able to proceed straight to the test after an IV. The CT technologist said they have had to cancel people’s scans previously because they were unable to get their heart rates low enough to obtain quality scans

Today, I was supposed to go in for an echo of my heart and a treadmill stress test. I have a tear at the myotendinous junction in my right calf so I was unable to do the stress test. When I first walked in for my echo, the tech asked if I’d seen the results of my angiogram. I had not and she proceeded to tell me it was “abnormal with an 80-90% blockage”. I asked which vessel and she said “your circumflex, but that was the only vessel with blockage”. This was confusing to me because my coronary calcium score broke down the score (or calcium) for each coronary artery and my score was very high for my left anterior descending and a little less for my right coronary artery. All other coronary arteries were scored as “zero”. She was nice enough to ask the cardiologist if he would go ahead and see me today since my angiogram was read as abnormal.

When I saw the cardiologist, he started off by saying “your echo was normal except you have an ‘athlete’s heart’ and this is because you are a runner”. Next, he says “now let’s talk about your angiogram”. At this point, I was sure he was about to explain that I needed a stent placed. Instead, he says “you have no blockages anywhere”. This was a HUGE relief and he proceeded to explain the shape of my circumflex artery made it appear to have a blockage when in fact it was actually not blocked at all. He showed it to me on my angiogram.

So, the coronary calcium score was a good learning lesson and forced me to dig deeper into my cardiac health. Looks like I’m one of those endurance athletes who has a high calcium score but open arteries. I’m thankful for the knowledge and expertise of these heart specialists

Holy SHIT!

So happy for you

When I read 80 - 90% blockage I felt horrible for you

So very glad you were able to speak with the cardiologist right away instead of being worried about it for days or weeks

Huge congratulations

How relieved do you feel?

How did you feel thinking it was 80-90% blocked?

Holy SHIT!

So happy for you

When I read 80 - 90% blockage I felt horrible for you

So very glad you were able to speak with the cardiologist right away instead of being worried about it for days or weeks

Huge congratulations

How relieved do you feel?

How did you feel thinking it was 80-90% blocked?

Thank you. To some, this may sound strange but I actually got teary eyed when I got out to my car. I think the idea of having significant coronary disease was weighing on me a lot more than I realized. But, I was certainly overjoyed and very thankful to have the great test result.

I had convinced myself I’d likely need a stent placed (best case scenario) but was scared the testing would find significant enough disease I’d end up needing a CABG (open heart surgery). Whatever was needed, I was going to do it because my ultimate goal is to live as long as possible. So, when she said she read the report and the circumflex was described as 80-90% blocked, I was kind of relieved and thought to myself “ok, it’s only one vessel so maybe this means I’ll just need a stent and will not have to undergo open heart surgery”.

When the cardiologist clarified that I actually had no blockages in any of my vessels, I could’ve hugged every person in that office.

Holy SHIT!

So happy for you

When I read 80 - 90% blockage I felt horrible for you

So very glad you were able to speak with the cardiologist right away instead of being worried about it for days or weeks

Huge congratulations

How relieved do you feel?

How did you feel thinking it was 80-90% blocked?

Thank you. To some, this may sound strange but I actually got teary eyed when I got out to my car. I think the idea of having significant coronary disease was weighing on me a lot more than I realized. But, I was certainly overjoyed and very thankful to have the great test result.

I had convinced myself I’d likely need a stent placed (best case scenario) but was scared the testing would find significant enough disease I’d end up needing a CABG (open heart surgery). Whatever was needed, I was going to do it because my ultimate goal is to live as long as possible. So, when she said she read the report and the circumflex was described as 80-90% blocked, I was kind of relieved and thought to myself “ok, it’s only one vessel so maybe this means I’ll just need a stent and will not have to undergo open heart surgery”.

When the cardiologist clarified that I actually had no blockages in any of my vessels, I could’ve hugged every person in that office.

Doesn’t sound strange at all

So happy for you buddy

And I would have give you a great big hug back

Now go out and eat steak every day lol. Just kidding

Enjoy the relief

From someone just recently diagnosed, I wanted to say thanks to all for sharing information here. I also have a question: does anyone have a cardiologist in California that they are happy with? The first cardiologist I saw does not have any knowledge of athletes, and seemed somewhat surprised that I am struggling with statins and training and muscle soreness. (She told me there were no known issues with that.)

Background: 54yo, completely asymptomatic (FTP 350w with no issues at all at high intensity), recently returned CAC score of 467. When I asked for the CAC referral my dr said insurance probably wouldn’t pay for it because I had no risk factors, but now I am obviously very glad I did the test. I am just now trying to catch up and learn what all this means, and all the links and videos are very helpful. Thanks especially to dtoce for generously sharing his knowledge.