Comparison of H3 to other hed wheels

Triathlon Forum
1

Many people say the tri-spoke is the best front wheel, unless it’s too windy. From the HED website, I pulled the numbers posted for pounds of drag on 4 of their wheels: Alps, H3, Jet 60 and Jet 90.

at zero degrees wind angle, the numbers: .406, .409, .402, .403 No difference in my mind.

at 5 degrees, the numbers are: .392, .397, .417, .357 So, the Jet 60 is slowest, the Jet 90 is fastest, the H3 and Alps are about the same

at 10 degrees: .304, .321, .427, .291 The Jet 90 is fastest.

at 15 degrees: .4, .33, .406, .268 The first time the H3 was rated better than the Alps, but the Jet 90 is kicking tail.

at 30 degrees: .415, .278, .485, .393 This is the first time the H3 was the best.

I don’t know how they tested these wheels, but, if they just had them in a wind tunnel, sitting still and spinning, then varied the angle at which the wind hit the spinning wheel…this isn’t like the real world. A 10 mph side wind coming at 90 degrees from the side becomes an apparent (or effective) 45 degree side wind when the rider is going 10 mph, and it becomes an apparent 22.5 degree side wind when the rider is going 20 mph. Right? Since wind direction on a moving bike is more appropriately considered in terms of “apparent wind direction” (a common sailing term), not actual wind direction, it leads me to believe that perhaps the Alps might not be less aero than the H3, and that the Jet 90 might be the best…because it takes quite a strong side wind to produce an apparent wind of 30 degrees…and 30 degrees is where the H3 FINALLY outperformed the others.

SO, the H3 might be BEST to run in wind, and one of the others better in calmer conditions (especially the Jet 90), at least, if it can be handled OK.

What am I missing?

2

I don’t think you are missing anything. What you’ve discovered is that aero studies don’t tell the whole story and that extrapolating the data is guess work.

Those of us trying to eke out the last few seconds due to a wheel or fork will likely not see an improvement solely contributed to a particular component choice. Not because the product doesn’t do as advertised but rather due to the fact that us riders put ourselves onto the bike and screw up all the controlled varibles of the wind tunnel.

Buy a wheel, any deep section wheel and know that another brand or choice is not the difference between winning and losing. Buy the wheel and never look back and think that another was a better choice. Buy it, ride it and forget it.

4

Hi Titan,

Those numbers dont mean anything to me or I would guess the majority of people on this forum as I dont podium all the time so seconds and all the wind tunnell data doesnt apply to me.

What I look for in a race wheel is the durability, construction, reputation and warranty of the manufactuer.

HED makes some great wheels and I dont think you can go wrong with any of their selections, the only drawbacks that I noticed with my HED trispokes was that they are not the best choice in a crosswind, i almost ate pavement a couple of times and that was enough for me, half the people on this forum will say that its BS but the other half will say its true so check them out for yourself and make your own desicion, also the carbon braking surface is subpar when comparing them to the Zipps braking surface, night and day difference, also night and day difference in the price, ha.

But as psycholist eludes to, its all about the engine.

.

5

Thanks, Bob and Russell.

Anybody have experience with trying to fly a Jet 90 on the front? It LOOKS like a lot of surface area…

6

Heavy Duty, as a clydesdale, I’m a little surprised you found an H3 to be too much of a handful, unless your bike geometry isn’t suitable for your weight distribution and/or you didn’t have a disc rear at the same time. I currently run an H3 and a rear disc…about as good at it is “supposedly” going to get without going to two discs. BUT, I do have an almost flat 10 mile TT (7 laps on Lowe’s Motor Speedway), and was just looking over the data. Just seems to me, that unless you’re in a pretty stiff crosswind (the kind that makes an H3 harder to handle), you might be fractionally better off with one of their other wheels.

OTOH, I’d guess an H3 to be one of their more bombproof wheels as far as durability. I have hit speedbumps that threw me into the air and not gotten mine out of true. But, I had to return an early Alps as it got “the wiggles” at each and every spoke…it just occilated down the road after a few hundred miles. They swapped me out for the H3 as a replacement (once I paid the difference in price), great deal and great service as far as I’m concerned.

I’m just curious about the numbers, and if they are meaningful differences, and if so, if anyone has ridden a Jet 90 up front that could comment on it’s handling.

7

Isn’t the Jet 90 the same as a HED Deep? I have no idea. if it is, then I’ve ridden something close. I had a J-disc front. The rim is very deep compared to a 404. It had straight pull titanium bladed spokes and a feathery light American Classic hub. IT WAS FAST!! Don’t know if it was the deep section or the wieght, but it may have been the same as riding a Jet 90 due to the deep rim. I still like the HED3 fronts. I use them for training and racing. I also have a 440 front and it does seem fast, but maybe not as fast as the HED3 front. Really…who the heck knows…depends on the wind direction, the engine, the fork, the set up,…way too many variables to say one is always faster then the other.

8

"Isn’t the Jet 90 the same as a HED Deep? "

Yep. Damn good wheel I might add.

To answer Titan’s question, I’d suspect they would be quite tempermental as a front in anything but a relatively calm day. I’ve “noticed it” on really windy days with just the Hed 60 or Cx front wheel.

9

Hey Titan,

I was surprised that I couldnt control these wheels in a crosswind being a bigger rider but it is true, I was riding front and back tri spokes and it was a handfull in a crosswind, someone mentioned to take the rear tri spoke of and use a disk and I did and it did subside somewhat but not enough for me. I rode all last year on 404’s and loved them, never had a problem in crosswinds either. I believe that those 70mm spokes catch the wind waaaaaaay more than the sapim ray spokes of the 404’s. I dont think geometry was a factor as I was riding a P3 in a steep configuration with a profeesional bike fit.

As for me, I never noticed anything special out of the HED tri spokes, I always felt that I was faster on the 404’s. Once I achieved wheel spinup in the 22-24mph range they just seemed to go faster and felt comfortable, everynow and then I would look down at my computer to see what I was doing and I seemed to settle in at 25-26mph on a standard day, pretty cool, but I couldnt do that with the HED,s, but to each his own, HEd wheels are good wheels as professed by me and others on this forum, you cnat go wrong with them.

.

10

Heavy Duty wrote: As for me, I never noticed anything special out of the HED tri spokes, I always felt that I was faster on the 404’s.

What front fork did you have on your bike? Standard Cervelo, I presume? I’m really wondering if the fork and wheel interaction really is significant enough to have the effect I was told about, namely, that forks with very close legs may be faster without the “whop-whop-whop” of the tri-spoke interaction as it passes the fork legs. I really don’t pretend to know…just raising a question.

11

Hey Titan.

I’m the Webmaster for Hed Cycling and I can tell you that all Hed wheels are tested in the tunnel rotating at 30 mph and at 0, 5, 10, 15, 30 degrees. There are some wheels that have one or so angles left out though. I’m not sure if they weren’t tested at those angles or we just don’t have the data. I will tell you that Steve Hed has spent a LOT of time in the wind tunnel lately and they are continually surprised at just how good the Hed 3 is.

I ride one myself. I personally don’t have a problem with the wind buffeting them unless in extreme wind (I wouldn’t use it in Hawaii) and then I would use an Alps which is great wheel too.

Anyway, it’s a tough wheel to beat. The all carbon version is out now too so you might want to take a look at it. Hope this helps.

Adam

12

The difference between an H-3 and a 32 hole box rim is probably 40-45 seconds at 40K. John Cobb says the H-3 is hands down the fastest, but I’d say the difference to a Nimble Crosswind, a 404 or a Jet 30 (or the HED Cx that I run) is less than 10 seconds. The new 606 or 808 might be faster, but more susceptible to cross wind.

As to wind, the H-3 is a beast with a “standard” rim, or even a 404. Run it with a disk and your golden. Same thing with any of the extra deep front wheels, you need to have more surface area on the back wheel to keep the bike stable (except for the Mavic IO which only belongs on the front of a track bike).

13

Thanks, Adam. Have you ever ridden the Jet 90 up front? It’s numbers are better than the H3 all the way up until you hit 30 degrees side wind. That suggests to me that the front Jet 90 would be better than the H3 unless it was very windy…THEN the H3 would be better. I have an H3 and don’t have handling problems, I’ve raced on it a couple of years in every race. I’m just wondering if on those quiet, flatter courses, if the Jet 90 would be a significantly faster wheel. Here’s the drag numbers again, just for the Jet 90 and the H3:

degrees: 0 5 10 15 30

Jet 90: .**403 ** .**357 ** .**291 ** .**268 ** .393

Hed 3: .409 .397 .321 .330 .278

no difference at 0 degrees, 0.04 lbs less drag on the Jet 90 at 5 degrees. 0.03 lbs. less drag at 10 degrees. 0.062 lbs. less drag at 15 degrees…which is 1% better for the Jet 90, if you use 6.2 lbs of drag as the total for the rider in a very good position.

I don’t know the proper math to put a number to it in speed differential, i.e., I don’t know what change in speed you’d get at 25 mph if your drag decreased 0.062 lbs. Can we do the math simply? Such as: if you frame the question as a matter of watts: the rider is putting out 300 watts, a 1% decrease in wattage is 297 watts. I still don’t know the speed decrease at 25 mph if the rider put out 3 less watts, but, I’m not sure it’s measureable for the Age Grouper (sounds like some sort of ugly fish).

The real eye-opener for me is, so many people say don’t run the H3 in a high cross-wind. Well, a high cross-wind is exactly the time the H3 shines…so, if you can handle the bike/wheel combo of an H3/H3 or H3/disc in high cross-winds, you’d do better to keep them on. It’s just the opposite of what the Average Age Grouper seems to think. “Oh, it’s windy today, better take my H3 off.” When asked if they have trouble staying on the course with the H3 on, they’ll often say, “Not really”.

The way I interpret the data, if one had unlimited “wheel money”: run the Alps if it isn’t windy and you’ll be climbing, because it has better low-yaw numbers than the H3 and the Alps is lighter. Run the Jet 90 if you’re not climbing much but it’s somewhat windy, because although it’s heaviest, it has the best yaw numbers up to at least 15 degrees. Run the H3 in high wind…unless it’s so high that it’s not safe to ride…then, stay inside and read Slowtwitch.

Thanks for taking the time!

14

CUZ wrote: As to wind, the H-3 is a beast with a “standard” rim, or even a 404. Run it with a disk and you’re golden

I agree. I always run H3/rear disc. Even in the mountains. I’m 185 lbs., a little extra weight isn’t bothering me going up, and I think I make up for it by bombing down the other side as fast as possible. I do get more to the center of my lane when going 40+mph downhill with the H3/disc combo…those pesky puffs of sidewind can move the bike around underneath me a foot either way. I just try to keep my center of gravity over the area of the lane in which I’m travelling, and let the bike move back and forth under me however it needs to…it always comes back to your center of gravity if you just don’t fight it.

15

Wow, OK, this is getting a little past my expertise level. I’ll forward this on to Andy at Hed. He’s the guru.

As for riding the Deeps. Yeah, they were my first pair way back when. Front and rear. It is a great wheel but I would only put it in back now. They handle much slower than the H3. You’re talking about a large surface area and it’s quite a bit heavier. You’ll notice that on the site, the 90 is only offered for the rear. I’m sure they would make a front if you really wanted one but it’s not the best application for it. I never rode them in the heavy wind but I would ride an H3 in wind before the 90. That’s just me though.

Honestly, the fastest setup you can do is a lenticular disc in the rear and an H3 up front. There’s a reason why you see so many on the TT stages in the tour. And for windy setups like Hawaii, Hed3 rear and Alps front.

Anyway, I’ll forward this thread on to Andy and we’ll see what he says.

Adam

16

Thanks, Adam! Really nice of you.

17

I guess it boils down to what the average conditions are in your state, in south florida its always windy, 10-15mph all the time. If these wheels are so great in the wind I dont see it, people down here just dont use them, I could probably count with one hand the amount of people that use them for racing or training down here, just another observation.

.

18

Titan, If I read your posts correctly then the short answers to your question are:

yes, the jet 90 (or deep) is a slightly more aero wheel in some wind angles than the H3 is.

The jet 90 is a harder wheel to ride on the front. All of the surface area on the jet 90 is out at the rim, so when a crosswind hits it, your steering is more affected than it is with the H3. The affected surface is farther away from the steering axis of the wheel, so the wind appears to have more leverage to steer the wheel. I have ridden a 650 deep, and it took some getting used to, but it was not unrideable, and it was fast. I have not ridden a 700, but because it has more surface area than a 650 it is going to handle less well.

More aero is not always faster - if you are tense and fighting the bike you are probably not going to ride as fast. In low wind situations the Jet deep is a faster wheel than the H3, but the H3 is a more all conditions wheel.

-Andy (I work at Hed)

19

Adam:

Do you know about the availability of the Stinger v90 and the Carbonlite Disc in the U.S.? I saw them on the UK site, but only a short blurb on the disc and nothing on the 90 mm Stinger on the U.S. site.

Thanks.

Richard

20

Hey Richard.

I’ve forwarded this one on to Andy as well. Stay tuned.

Adam

21

Toss out the data and ride the wheel you are most comfortable with. It seems to me that the data is information in a vacuum as you never ride in conditions with wind at a static angle.

I have ridden multiple combos of these wheels. HED-3s front and back. HED-3 back and Jet 60 front, HED-3 back and Jet 90 front, and Jet 90 back and Jet 60 front. My preference for all-around racing is the HED-3 back and Jet 60 front. I feel that this pairing has greater versatility for all kinds of wind conditions. The HED-3 front and Jet 90 front are awesome wheels, but when the winds hit 15+ they become a bit much to handle (and I’m a bigger guy, 6’-1" @ 190). The only difficulty I have ever had with my current pairing was Kona '04 where the winds were 35+. I’ve never ridden in conditions like that, and hope never to again. Many stretches where it was unsafe to be in the aeros. I think this would have been a problem regardless of the Jet 60 up front - i.e., most riders probably struggled in the cross winds regardless of what front wheel they chose.