I thought this was interesting. what say you?
Somewhat interesting. More interesting: tell me why anyone imagines that anything good is achieved by making that trade illegal?
no evidence of any reduction in prostitution - whether or not that really is desirable - is that good?
increase in prison population that is already proportionally 8 - 10 times that of comparable countries - is that good?creates an entire criminal industry in ‘protection’ and pimping - is that good?diverts significant, scarce police and judicial system resources - is that good?drives corrupt conduct in police forces - is that good?drives sex workers underground, away from health advice and care services, away from police and out of the taxation and social services systems - is that good?promotes the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS, throughout the community - is that good?
The list of costs of this policy is pretty long. What’s the good news?
No arguments from me. I cannot understand why I can have sex with any adult I want for free but somehow giving them money for it can land me in jail. but if I pay them and videotape it then its perfectly legal. Makes no fucking sense.
Somewhat interesting. More interesting: tell me why anyone imagines that anything good is achieved by making that trade illegal?
no evidence of any reduction in illegal drugs- whether or not that really is desirable - is that good?
increase in prison population that is already proportionally 8 - 10 times that of comparable countries - is that good?creates an entire criminal industry in ‘protection’ and sellling- is that good?diverts significant, scarce police and judicial system resources - is that good?drives corrupt conduct in police forces - is that good?drives drugs users underground, away from health advice and care services, away from police and out of the taxation and social services systems - is that good?promotes the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS, throughout the community - is that good?
The list of costs of this policy is pretty long. What’s the good news?
Somewhat interesting. More interesting: tell me why anyone imagines that anything good is achieved by making that trade illegal?
no evidence of any reduction in prostitution - whether or not that really is desirable - is that good?
increase in prison population that is already proportionally 8 - 10 times that of comparable countries - is that good?creates an entire criminal industry in ‘protection’ and pimping - is that good?diverts significant, scarce police and judicial system resources - is that good?drives corrupt conduct in police forces - is that good?drives sex workers underground, away from health advice and care services, away from police and out of the taxation and social services systems - is that good?promotes the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS, throughout the community - is that good?
The list of costs of this policy is pretty long. What’s the good news?
I’m not going to debate this point by point, but if you look up the contries such as Netherlands that have legal prostitution, you find they are now having major drug and crime problems after finally fully legalizing prostitution in 2000. they are among the top countries with human trafficing crimes. Legalizing prostitution has made this worse and organized crime has grown in this industry. Amsterdam is now in the process of scaling back the red light district and hash cafe’s. So it does not appear legalizing is the answer to prostitution’s related crimes. Organized crime is even more in control in these countries.
Legalizing prostitution has made this worse and organized crime has grown in this industry.
My mother in law was telling me they were regularly “requested” by the mob to have their “Vending machines”, cigarettes etc put in her restaurant in the 50’s. Organized crime and crime in general will find a way to get into any place they think they can make money. I think simply saying “Organized crime has grown in this industry” is a bit of a twist without discussing what is really happening.
You’ll have a very hard time convincing me that organized crime suddenly decided to “Get involved” once it became legal and that they weren’t involved when it was illegal. My guess is that the industry has grown overall making for a larger market. Furthermore now it’s legal and since it’s legal the crime that already existed is being exposed more since “Real business” is getting hurt and harassed by organized crime.
Prior to this organized crime was able to simple prey on the weak and unprotected because they had no choice as what they were doing was illegal, try and harass a legitimate business and you can go to the police.
I’d rather the police chasing organized crime attempting to injure, harass and control individuals…then arresting prostitutes and drug addicts.
~Matt
But somehow nevada does just fine by regulating it and mandating regular std testing.
… I see what you did there…
and, yup
“now having major drug and crime problems”
Of course those problems don’t exist in the USA or other countries where its illegal.
.
“now having major drug and crime problems”
Of course those problems don’t exist in the USA or other countries where its illegal.
The point being argued was that crime will go away when you legalize prostitution. I did a search and found other countries like Netherlands are finding more crime with legalization, not less. Mobs have taken over much of the prostitution and are forcing both local women and women they bring in to be sex slaves. This is the Netherlands saying it is worse now and they are taking steps to kick out the mobsters by closing hundreds of brothels…
Prostitution is not always victimless like youwould like to believe.
"Legalizing prostitution has made this worse and organized crime has grown in this industry. "
Why should prostitution be illegal in a supposedly free country? Prostitution is a product and as long as two adults agree to the terms of the service and there is no contract violation it shouldn’t be the power of government to interfere in such an economic transaction that is based on free will.
How is prostitution any different from many marriages? It’s only different in the time variable and the number of clients. The reason the US has such a high prison population is solely due to its anti-freedom policies that put people in jail for the benefit of those that profit from the private prison industry and the associated distortion/imbalance of economic demand and supply variables.
Organized crime doesn’t increase with legality, organized crime increases as a result of prohibition. Greater prices are the result of the increased risk that come with illegality and with that comes greater financial reward…that makes the crime worth the risk…that people do not comprehend this simple cause-and-effect shows that they have no mental capacity to learn from history. It’s obvious that people didn’t learn anything from alcohol prohibition and the current disaster in the war on drugs…
Please support your statement that drug and prostitution legality increases crime…I call bullshit on this…
"Legalizing prostitution has made this worse and organized crime has grown in this industry. "
Why should prostitution be illegal in a supposedly free country? Prostitution is a product and as long as two adults agree to the terms of the service and there is no contract violation it shouldn’t be the power of government to interfere in such an economic transaction that is based on free will.
How is prostitution any different from many marriages? It’s only different in the time variable and the number of clients. The reason the US has such a high prison population is solely due to its anti-freedom policies that put people in jail for the benefit of those that profit from the private prison industry and the associated distortion/imbalance of economic demand and supply variables.
Organized crime doesn’t increase with legality, organized crime increases as a result of prohibition. Greater prices are the result of the increased risk that come with illegality and with that comes greater financial reward…that makes the crime worth the risk…that people do not comprehend this simple cause-and-effect shows that they have no mental capacity to learn from history. It’s obvious that people didn’t learn anything from alcohol prohibition and the current disaster in the war on drugs…
Please support your statement that drug and prostitution legality increases crime…I call bullshit on this…
X2 on this. They need to legalize pot too. Never used either but don’t see why people shouldn’t be able to if they want. Prohibition didn’t work and this won’t either. It’ll just take some time and a ‘turnover’ in the old white people. Just saw a study too that marriage will drop below 50% for the first time ever. The times they are a-changin’. It’s always interesting to see it happen. No sense fighting progress.
Jamie
I wonder how the double standard of ‘morality’ might change if prostitution was acknowledged as a necessary ‘evil.’
.
“now having major drug and crime problems”
Of course those problems don’t exist in the USA or other countries where its illegal.
The point being argued was that crime will go away when you legalize prostitution. I did a search and found other countries like Netherlands are finding more crime with legalization, not less. Mobs have taken over much of the prostitution and are forcing both local women and women they bring in to be sex slaves. This is the Netherlands saying it is worse now and they are taking steps to kick out the mobsters by closing hundreds of brothels…
Prostitution is not always victimless like youwould like to believe.
Rarely is it victimless but it seems as if some males on ST think that abusing and degrading females who are down on their luck, addicted to drugs, or forced into slavery and “imported” from outside the U.S. is a positive. I have friends who work with abused females and males, children and adults who were forced into the business, or chose to work in the business and found themselves in over their heads and abused. Not a one will tell you it should be made legal and most will tell you that those who advocate this type of abuse may be in need of help themselves, or are just naive as to what actually goes on behind closed doors.
Rarely is it victimless but it seems as if some males on ST think that abusing and degrading females who are down on their luck, addicted to drugs, or forced into slavery and “imported” from outside the U.S. is a positive.
Nice strawman. Your ridiculous argument can be applied to anything.
You think marriage shoild be legal? You must think spousal abuse is a positive.
You think driving on the highway should be legal? You must think tragic accidents are a positive.
You think gun ownership should be legal? You must love gun violence. Ive known people shot by guns in violent crimes and none of them will tell you guns should be legal.
Just because there exist the possibility of abuse by some That doesnt mean that this would be the norm.
Please explain the difference between taking a girl or guy out and spending 100$ on a date with the hope of getting laid at the end and just giving them the 100$ for sex. How does one action suddenly become dangerous and violent?
I wonder how the double standard of ‘morality’ might change if prostitution was acknowledged as a necessary ‘evil.’
Im not sure I understand what you mean.
“now having major drug and crime problems”
Of course those problems don’t exist in the USA or other countries where its illegal.
The point being argued was that crime will go away when you legalize prostitution. I did a search and found other countries like Netherlands are finding more crime with legalization, not less. Mobs have taken over much of the prostitution and are forcing both local women and women they bring in to be sex slaves. This is the Netherlands saying it is worse now and they are taking steps to kick out the mobsters by closing hundreds of brothels…
Prostitution is not always victimless like youwould like to believe.
Can you point me to the information you are referring to for the Netherlands as I haven`t read anything like that but would be interested in seeing some recent stats or studies. Thanks.
M|
But somehow nevada does just fine by regulating it and mandating regular std testing.
I have zero statistics to back this up, but I’d argue that there could be more prostitution in Clark County - where prostitution is illegal and unregulated - than all the legal brothels combined.
My speculation is based on being constantly and openly solicited every time I go to Vegas, most notably while attending the Consumer Electronics Show. (For the record, I’ve never purchased said services.)
Originally, I was reading this from wikipeida, Granted you may not want to use Wikipedia as a source, but I found the section on the 21st century interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands#21st_century:_reducing_the_size_of_the_red_light_district
21st century: reducing the size of the red light district
When the Dutch government legalized prostitution in 2000, it was to protect the women by giving them work permits, but authorities now fear that this business is out of control: “We’ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities”, said Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam. Recently, officials have noticed an increase in violence centered on this irregular industry, and have blamed this increase on the illegal immigration of individuals into Amsterdam to participate in the sex industry: “The guys from Eastern Europe bring in young and frightened women; they threaten them and beat them”, said a resident of De Wallen. Prostitution has remained connected to criminal activities, which has led the authorities to take several measures, including detailed plans to help the prostitutes quit the sex trade and find other professions.
In 2005 Amma Asante and Karina Schaapman, two councilors for the Labour Party (Netherlands), wrote a report, “Het onzichtbare zichtbaar gemaakt” (Making the Invisible Visible). Schaapman had once been a prostitute and was getting information about the influx of organized crime and violence into the business. Other reports came out around the same time. They concluded that a large number of prostitutes in Amsterdam were being forced to work and were being abused by pimps and criminal gangs, and that the goals of legalization were failing.
If you search on prostitution in many of the other countries where it is legal, you also find a large part is forced either explicity through vilonence and threats of death, or through poverty and no viable options for the prostitutes.
here is also an interesting collection of facts and figures for the Netherlands.
My last post was a little cryptic, sorry. What I mean to say is, one the one hand, prostitution in this country is viewed with disgust, condemned as amoral and made illegal (almost everywhere); despite this, prostitutes have always had plenty of customers. Perhaps this hypocrisy has run its course, and we can acknowledge there is demand for sex-for-money, regulate it to protect the general public’s health as well as those in the trade. Reiterating your OP basically.
What is puzzling is, as you say, the tension between the social contract (sex between consenting partners, no money) vs the market contract.
BTW The article makes me a little suspicious; of course there is more to the story. I do feel incredibly sorry for this person, due to my own assumptions and prejudice, though I suppose there are worse fates. But why do we view prostitutes with such contempt and not the johns. She would not be in business if she did not have a market for her services.
note: France is currently pursuing a strategy of prosecuting the clients of prostitutes. A BBC article mentions “France has been committed to abolishing the practice in principle since 1960.”
1960 was a long time ago.