So, since it came up, what plyometrics do you recommend for time limited AGers, and how often, and at what times of the training cycle?
I have coached NCAA XC and distance for five years and from what I have seen in my myself, my runners, and others who are fast, I would argue that people don’t need plyometrics until they can run at least 60 miles a week without injury. Why? Plyometrics (in my opinion) when done by the limited AGers is going to be without supervision and this does two things:
1- remove time that they could be running.
2-increase the chances for catastrophic injury.
I say it is not worth it. Why punish yourself? Just run and run some more (until you reach 60+ miles a week for a year and you will be much faster than trying to implement plyometrics with 30ish miles a week. This is my guess at the average AG’er amount of running.
The trick to running well is consistency and staying injury free. That is all you need. There are no secrets! Your body will find out what’s right for itself and you will reach your potential. Running fast is not about knowing the right technique (like swimming) or having the right position (like cycling). Forget plyometrics until you have maximized your consistent miles per week without injury.
Damn good point
Eric
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Why punish yourself? Just run and run some more (until you reach 60+ miles a week for a year and you will be much faster than trying to implement plyometrics with 30ish miles a week. This is my guess at the average AG’er amount of running.
Your comment was well made and some points made sense. However, the time taken by adding plyometrics twice a week, is not the equivalent to the time it takes to run 30 miles.
As far as supervision, 99.9% of the people on this forum train without supervison, so I’m not sure if that point is valid either.
As mentioned on the previous thread, studies indicate that speed can be created by plyometrics, and injuries can be prevented. Like anything, changes in training should be done slowly and with caution.
I was also interested in the “catastrophic injury” theory from a XC coach…a sport, in comparison to the equivalent road version/distance, is prone to greater injury potential, just like mountain biking versus road.
Like anything, everyone can find a positive, while others find a negative. Plyometrics, like weight training, high volume training, intervals, etc can cause injury or greater power/speed. Mostly, it’s all individual and not definative.
THe point i agree with and I think what you are misinterpreting, is that do them if you have the legs to do them. It’s a double edged sword. You need to get some mileage in your legs first. Plyos are very explosive and pounding activities. More so than any type of running. You are usually putting explosive pressure on one leg at a time, etc. Lifting can be added to the running early on to increase the strength, stability and the ability of the tissue to withstand pounding from running. But, if you really are worried, you can try the plyos in the water. It will help with the pounding.
Eric
I would say “NYSLIM” makes a good point. Plyometrics is a fairly advanced training method. Time-limited AG’ers are better off running MORE.
Granted. But, would not some mild plyos, like karaokes, butt kickers, skipping with knee lifts, hill bounding be of some benefit, in increasing elastic rebound and strengthening without the risk of…say…box jumps, one-legged hopping, etc. Could these not be accomplished with a minimal time expenditure at the end of a run, or after a warm up. BTW, I’m not talking about the average AGer, but someone looking to reach the podium, or qualify for Kona.
And, which of these exercises would provide the greatest benefit with the least time expenditure?
Great reply. So few actually run “enough”, but are always looking for that mystical something else in training. There is no substiture for miles. I just felt bad for missing the 200 mile Nov challenge (did 191). Even my 250 mile months still feel like I could have run more. I would most certainly take MORE miles over plyometrics any day. Also, with increasing miles, it is quite easy to get injured. I can only imagine the injury potential with aggressive plyometrics in the 30 mpw 45 year old triathlete. I really hate repairing ruptures achilles 
…
Your post makes me laugh.
Docfuel - totally agree, my easy plyos and lifting are how I stay healthy, including light leg press (3 x 20 with 90 lbs, one leg at a time).
I have no interest in pulling a bus load of large-chested women ala World’s Strongest Mans, unless it is back to my place…
I really need a way to strengthen my psoas.
SPL
Your so’ ass? or psoas?
ONe legged trainer drills???
Frank Day would say to get PC’s. Or you could be stud like cdw and race HIMs with PCs.
Forget the large chested women. I want the ones with the strong legs and glutes (and strong psoas?), unless I need a pillow. ;^)
Of course, both might be nice.
I’m going to simultaneously agree and disagree with what you’re saying here.
Firstly, my experience of runners is very different from most people on this forum, since most of my background has focused on ‘non-natural runners’ (the RW UK readership was/is increasingly novice, non-gifted in biomechanical terms and ‘slow’).
My personal view is that low-intensity plyos have a central role in the training of novice runners, particularly those who do not initially run well (I’ve seen shuffling, swaying, thumping, limping and all sorts used as 'most effective ’ running gaits by new runners). These people do in a very real sense need to learn to run properly before they run more, otherwise they ingrain their biomechanical imbalances and often stagnate/become injured.
I would also say that in addition to consistency and staying injury-free you need to actually be able to run. You say that running fast is not about knowing the right technique. This is true. But it is about having a body that can perform the correct actions effieciently. Many runners simply do not have this. It will shock and surprise a huge number of experienced coaches of college and high school teams, but the vast majoprity of runners out there actually cannot run economically at all. Go to a gym, watch a mass-participation race, really focus on the action of the Sunday morning runners you see out in your local park, and you’ll quickly realise that what these people think of as running and what running actually is are often a surprisingly long way apart.
I do agree that plyos are not the first thing you should do, but I also think they’re more important at earlier stages than people think. I’d personally see training built for at least 6 weeks with walk-run and light weights first, then I’d introduce plyos in place of the weights, get them to a point of incidental training, then build the running around the plyos until the plyos were domething done as BarryP does them, incidentally at the end of runs and in certain cases before intervals and reps.
I also agree that unsupervised plyos can be a problem, but then the same is true of any unsupervised training, and those are the bread and butter of most fitness-oriented people on this planet. Similarly, a blanket prescription of more running is equally unhelpful (particularly in triathlon) both for the reason stated above and because very often there is no more time to fill. In truth it’s rarely a choice of 30 miles or 60 (because we don’t want to give up an entrie year for running). But it might be a choice of 30 miles and some plyos or 35 miles. And in that instance the plyos and lower mileage will sometimes be the better choice.
It’s interesting to see how can someone sound so authorative in this subject and yet doesn’t know what running economy is.
It’s interesting to see how can someone sound so authorative in this subject and yet doesn’t know how the core works or is involved in human movement.
This topic has been overcooked! The definition of Plyometric is the process of muscular activity, which involves the eccentric loading of a muscle, followed by an immediate concentric unloading of a muscle. Running in and of itself is plyometric. Everyone has to let go of their old school or myopic thoughts on what a plyometric exercise is. The exercises that Barry does are plyometric in nature but I would classify them as bio-motor skills (BTW it is Carrioca not Karoke) which are lacking in many people. These are basic skills that should be mastered before attempting any athletic activity! Plyometrics are a spectrum from simple ricochets of a 6" curb to 18" depth jumps. IMO They are part of a strength training program not a running program and should be periodized as such.
Volume of oxygen (usually related to bodyweight) that is required to move your body at a given speed?
So, in this context, if more impact energy can be stored and released through the tendons, VO2 required for a given speed should go down - improving economy. If you’re taking issue with this:
“the vast majority of runners out there actually cannot run economically at all”
I can only apologise. It’s late and I’m posting while watching TV. Would you feel happier if I was to say:
“the vast majority of runners out there do not run anything like as economically as they might”
As an aside, may I suggest that rather than making snide remarks, you might want to give out some constructive advice? After all, one might as well say of you that it’s interesting to see how someone can seem to waste so many seconds of their life picking holes (after all, evidence elsewhere suggests that you’re no Socrates), rather than sharing the wealth of knowledge that they occasionally demonstrate that they posess.
Just a thought…
NYSLIM, I agree with everything you say…however, I doubt the average age grouper averages even 30 mpw for the year. That would be >1500miles per year. I’d venture to guess that most guys are down in the 1000-1200 miles per year club, perhaps even less. I’m pretty diligent about maintaining some semblance of running volume all year and I’m in the 2500-3000K per year or 1500-1800 mile per year group. It takes lots of 45-60 mile weeks to make up for all those zero mile weeks if you want to average 30 mpw. I checked my log and I have zero weeks of zero running this year. I’ll end up a bit over 3000K this year, but that is just because I had a second Ironman to do in October, which kept the mileage up.
As for plyometrics, this is not exactly that, but just skipping for 2 min per day puts a bit of bounce in my run…I should do it more!
actually skipping is plyometrics - and one of the best ones.
1- remove time that they could be running.
2-increase the chances for catastrophic injury.
This is what I was getting at in the “do you do plyometrics thread”.
They are explosive exercises that carry an increased risk of injury. I like explosive movements, but they can be a significant injury risk, especially if performe3d by folks that are self-teaching or doing them like they think they’re suppossed to.
PS
Plyometrics is a fairly advanced training method. Time-limited AG’ers are better off running MORE.
This is important to me. Too often, we see an item come up in a thread, supported by some studies or even anecdotal evidence, and by the end of the week, a whole group of people have added it/them to their training … without questioning whether it is appropriate for them or understanding what degree of improvement they can expect.
Since you are the guy that is best known for “More is More”, my questioning in the other thread was basically asking if plyometrics were even appropriate for most triathletes.
doc
But, would not some mild plyos, like karaokes, butt kickers, skipping with knee lifts, hill bounding be of some benefit, in increasing elastic rebound and strengthening without the risk of…
I think there needs to be categories of plyometrics. Skipping, knee lifts, bounding, etc … are not anywhere near the same as maximal repeated jumps on or over varying degrees of height boxes. It would seem that anything could be some form of plyometrics. Many “plyometrics” are standard-issue warm-ups for running workouts.
Gary
IMO They are part of a strength training program not a running program and should be periodized as such.
This is the statement that I have been waiting for someone else to say. Obviously I agree with it.
I find it strange that traditional strength-training with resistance is frowned upon by many as a device that can improve performance, reduce injury, improve economy (indirectly), etc … but, playometrics training is being advocated … including explosive leg press and back extensions.
I’m not even close to an expert, but have a large interest and some expereince with plyometrics (and strength-training). Take my comments/questions for what they’re worth.
"“the vast majority of runners out there actually cannot run economically at all”
I can only apologise. It’s late and I’m posting while watching TV. Would you feel happier if I was to say:
“the vast majority of runners out there do not run anything like as economically as they might” "
Yes I would, much happier. That way I wouldn’t get the impression that you think you can evaluate running economy by simply looking at runners. I would be even more happy if you could point me to evidence that the vast majority of runners do not run as economically as they might. In fact, the case for the contrary is a much stronger one, that most runners do run as economically as they can.
In this thread (or the other) about Plyometrics I was the one that provided the links to the relevant papers on the subject. According to you, isn’t that a positive enough contribution? To me it is more worth than my opinion about the subject.
Fade, I just read your posting about novice runners. I actually coach kids at XC skiing. In the fall we get out for some ‘dryland’ training and many of your observations still apply. I am amazed by their lack of coordination and athleticism. Too much Nintendo and not enough “free play”. Anyway, I have them doing lots of jumping and bounding drills, concentrating on being “quiet” upon landing. Thumping etc is not permitted. These kids (some age 9-13) have not developed the neuro pathways that most of us 20-40 years ago used to automatically get just hanging around the playground, playing pickup football, hide and seek or tag. Go to any healtclub or back of pack at a major running race and you see a lot of the same. There is no bounce in the strides of people. There is seemingly a lack of “elasticity” in the body. Its almost like there is no compression at the hips and “stored energy” in the achilles. I also remember watching the 2000 Sydney Olympic tri with Messmer and Zeiger going for the bronze and just watching them I could see the Messmer was going to get the bronze…Zeiger had no bounce in her stride…just a fast shuffle, you can only go so fast with a fast shuffle (mind you she does a fine job shuffling very fast…)
The other day, we were “skipping” (no rope), and the goal was to be “quiet” and see who could last the longest. Interestingly enough, the 40+ coaches (myself and two others) lasted longer than the kids. I’m not sure if 40 year olds are fitter now than when we were kids (I think they are) or if kids are less fit (I think they are)…
Anyway…your point is good. Running like crap from the chute and then piling on tons of miles running like that is like telling a 2:30 100m swimmer to just hammer out more miles with his barge like technique!
Dev