Climbing Power and Analysis

Since joining the sport of triathlon a few years back I have struggled with climbing on tri bikes with steep seat angles. As a the ‘techie’ partner in a new triathlon shop with a history of amateur road and track racing I remember wondering back on 2003 after my first ride on a P2K what could be done to remedy this problem. Having spent a lot of time on a track bike I liked the power of steep angles and there were no restrictive UCI rules to prevent them – so why not? When my partner and I opened a triathlon shop last fall we quickly realized that this was also a key issue for many of our customers who simply dismissed steep seat angles claiming that they do not climb well. Having done some informal testing of my own that seemed to confirm this sentiment I have found it difficult to argue the point. Perhaps this explains why only a handful of tri-bike suppliers even offer geometry that can be truly classified as ‘steep’; most are still under 78 deg.

I had heard about Dan Empfield’s expertise through Cervelo and decided to look into the matter. I read a few of his tech articles and was not surprised to discover that the idea of a sliding seat had been tried 15 years ago. My curiosity was piqued. When I posted an enquiry about it on this forum Dan responded and explained that sliding seats are heavy but more importantly unnecessary if the proper TT climbing technique is used. He referred me to a thread from an experienced cyclist who had rediscovered the TT climbing technique which I affectionately refer to as “aero-spinning”. By using the aero-spinning technique this cyclist explained that he was able to limit his climbing power loss on his tri bike to 5 -10 watts below his road bike on an 8% grade. Problem solved. This was impressive since I had measured a loss of 20 to 30 watts in my testing albeit I was testing with my hands on the pursuits – not “aero-spinning”.

Aero-spinning is a somewhat counter-intuitive technique that calls for the rider to climb in the aero position while ‘spinning’ (I believe there is some general agreement that ‘spinning’ requires a cadence above 85 rpm). I say it is counter-intuitive because the point is not about reducing air drag but rather optimizing power output. The aero position however is the preferred position for climbing when a steep seat angle such as 81 deg is used because it ensures the rider is in this optimum power position.

Personally, I have unwittingly done a lot of my own aero-spinning and found it to be quite effective on softer and shorter grades up to about 3 or 4 percent. I fully understand the role of leg velocity in the power equation but when a hill is steep and/or my speed drops below 15 kph (10 mph) the urge/need to sit up and climb with a slower cadence in an upright position is almost overwhelming, of course sitting up on a bike with a steep seat angle is equivalent to shutting down the engines. So before asking Dan further questions on the subject I decided to do a little more testing.

So “what’s behind the urge/need to sit up” on a steep hill? I suspect Dan might advise that too much road biking experience and/or a lack of willingness to commit to a triathlon climbing style when the going gets tough. Another possible answer is that something changes or some new variable appears on steep slopes that compels the change in position.

With these two possibilities in mind I charged up my SRM and headed out for our 120 km Saturday morning hilly club ride. On the slopes of the mountains around Vancouver 8% grades are common. We have an abundant mixture of short and steep (15%) as well as very long (1 hr) climbs (8% to 10%) to the ski resorts above the city. I knew I was onto something after the first climb – a short 1 km dash. I used the aero-spin technique and maintained a cadence of 85 with my smallest gear of 39 inches (39 front, 27 back, 700C wheel) from bottom to top. This translates to a speed of 15.48 kph (9.6 mph). My SRM read 400 watts and my quads were a little toasty at the top. After the ride I employed a little elementary physics and calculated that at my Clydesdale class body weight (197 lb) plus bike, bottles, etc (23 lb) the slope of the hill was about 9.5%. I excluded mechanical and air drag as they are relatively small values compared to the power required to overcome gravity on a steep hill. I ran the numbers for lighter riders on the same slope. A 140 lb rider on the same 23 lb bike only needs to put out 296 watts: less is more as they say. I also computed output required on different slopes and created a little spreadsheet to graph the results. The only variable that remained constant was speed using the 39 inch gear and 85 rpm cadence. The limiting factor with aero-spinning became obvious quite quickly – Power. Even pros who can pedal an entire 180 km Ironman above 300 watts would start pushing the aero-spin envelope in a race with a lot of steep climbs. For example, a heavier pro that weighs 160 lb would need to generate 315 watts on a 9% grade to push a 39 inch gear at 85 rpm; this is roughly equivalent to holding 40 kph on the flat. My sense is that when the power output required to spin the smallest gear can no longer be sustained, a rider’s body will instinctively tend to compensate and recruit different muscles by changing positions, perhaps sitting up or standing on the pedals and dropping his cadence.

It’s a short stretch to conclude that every cyclist has a maximum sustainable power output which depends on many factors such as slope, elevation, body weight, strength, leg speed, muscular endurance, fatigue, hydration and so forth. In my experience most age groupers doing a hilly Ironman such as IM Canada cannot sustain the power required to spin a 39 inch gear at 85 rpm on the second major climb that comes toward the end of the race; the elites certainly do have the power and for them aero-spinning is effective. For the age-groupers lower gears and 650 wheels may or may not be enough for some to lower the power requirement sufficiently to support aero-spinning. In my view until someone engineers a proper seat shifter/slider to allow upright climbing at lower cadences using a road bike with a clip-on on hilly courses is the only other option.

Interesting stuff.

I don’t see how a “sliding seat” could work without being potentially dangerous. I have my seat tightened as much as possible but recently when I was sitting on the nose during a TT it slid down a little. A sliding seat would have to have a very secure method of attachment.

I must say I don’t really get your main point here. We all know power spikes while climbing limit performance. We all know that aero-spinning is the best way to climb on a steep TT bike. We all know your power limits your speed. I see your point about gears but a cyclist should know what gear ratios they need for a particular course. If you’re going off to something like IM Nice, you either have the gears you need already, or you go and buy them. If you don’t, then tough if you can’t spin in the smallest gear.

Personally, I have unwittingly done a lot of my own aero-spinning and found it to be quite effective on softer and shorter grades up to about 3 or 4 percent. I fully understand the role of leg velocity in the power equation but when a hill is steep and/or my speed drops below 15 kph (10 mph) the urge/need to sit up and climb with a slower cadence in an upright position is almost overwhelming, of course sitting up on a bike with a steep seat angle is equivalent to shutting down the engines. So before asking Dan further questions on the subject I decided to do a little more testing.

Why do you feel like sitting up is like shutting down the engines? I sit at around 80-81 and can spin at 350 watts up a hill fairly easily but if my speed starts to fall below 12-13 mph I will sit up move a little bit back on my seat so I’m not ridding the nose upright and see a 15-20 watt power increase. Sitting up is more like opening up the engines,

I think the point is that many cyclists won’t be able to spin their lowest gear on hilly courses and so would be better off doing these courses on a bike with a shallower seat angle.

It’s possible that he isn’t low enough (or hip angle isn’t tight enough for him) to lose power while in the aero position and when he sits up the hip angle is too large to generate max power. I think some people can generate a lot of power with a hip angle tighter than 90° and consequentially lose power over 110° or so.

I was surprised that I was able to put out 325 watts on Tower hill saturday while in the aero position. When I sat up I went down to just over 300 watts. Now that might have been cuz I was tired or it might have been cuz I wasn’t able to pull on the bars anymore.

My trend lately is to sit back while on the horns like you suggested and close my hip angle. Without doing that I can’t seem to put out as much power.

jaretj

I get that, but why not just get a wider gear range that suits them and their style?

I would agree that it is very natural when sitting up to relocate as far back as possible on the saddle. I use a skinny saddle for this very reason however it’s simply not possible to get back to an optimum position and its impossible to stand without saddle interference.

My main argument is that the bicycle configuration should not limit or constrain a rider’s ability to ride the bike in the best way possible; the bike should adapt to the rider not the other way around. If shallow (73 deg) is optimum on a steep climb then he should be able to get into that position. If steep (81 deg) is optimum on the flats to for power and aerodynamics then the bike should accomodate steep. The way I see things with tri-bikes right now is that they are single purpose TT type bikes that triathletes are forced to climb on using the clever aero-spin technique which is pretty kewl but lets face it, it’s not “preferred”; it’s not as good as having a shallow seat angle for climbing and descending. Many of my customers and fellow triathletes know this intuitively and until a tri-bike emerges that can match the flexibility and performance of a road bike on a steep hill, they will probably stick with their road bikes especially for the anything less than a full iron.

Bike makers aren’t going to innovate and change unless there is pressure from athletes who use their products. Without some consensus in the community that there is a desire for better climbing performance we will continue to see the same geometry year after year.

Cheers

With correct frame choice, size and fit there is little reason to go with a road bike over a tri bike for triathlons unless there is a massive amount of climbing and weight / decent stability becomes an issue.

I have yet to find a course that I’m not considerably quicker on my Tri bike over my road bike. It would have to include 10k+ climbs at 10%+ grade with highly technical descents. Even then the only reason I would use the road bike is because I could use the brakes in the drops on the descents and partially because of weight.

I don’t think on the fly adjustable geometry would benefit you enough to warrant taking away the weight advantage of a road bike and adding something else that can break!

If people are having problems climbing on a tri bike, they either need a better fit or they need to train more on that bike climbing.

Approx how far apart do you feel the seat positions for optimum climbing and aero positions are? Do you feel the reach would need adjustment too?

Are we looking at an inch or much more than that?

jaretj

My estimate is 3 inches of adjustment is required to go from steep (81 deg) to shallow(73 deg). A pursuit bar with short arms would probably be okay, but this would have to be tested.

I can slide about 2 inches on my seat (Arione Tri) but I’m pretty small and don’t need as much movement to close my hip angle as someone that may be 6 foot tall.

I don’t know if the market demands such a product but it would be interesting to see one and how it works.

Do the courses your customers ride on require extreme positions? It may just come down to a happy medium between them.

jaretj

I’m curious, what would you do if you could change bikes whenerver you wanted in a race with no time penalty. For climbing and descending you could switch to a road bike that weighed perhaps 100 to 150 grams more on account of the seat mechanism? On the flat you could use a TT bike. I would agree that overall a tri-bike is faster in an either/or situation. But if you could have both would there still be no significant advantage?

I would also certainly agree that anything adjustable would have to be properly engineered and extremely light. If you consider that the UCI imposed minimum weight regulations to counter the impressive engineering skills of todays top designers I don’t think this is an impossible task.

Vancouver is bounded by mountains on one side and a flood plane on the other so we have a great environment for all types of riding except for the rain! You can find very steep hills or miles of perfect flat. Out shop is located adjacent to the mountains which is where we ride most of the time.

I just don’t see understand the reason or willingness to compromise when we could have the best of both?

My observation is that most recreational triathletes have a cursory knowledge of the technical issues. More come from a running rather than cycling background. Extreme positions are not that common and are typically favored by more experienced triathletes.

I’m curious, what would you do if you could change bikes whenerver you wanted in a race with no time penalty. For climbing and descending you could switch to a road bike that weighed perhaps 100 to 150 grams more on account of the seat mechanism? On the flat you could use a TT bike. I would agree that overall a tri-bike is faster in an either/or situation. But if you could have both would there still be no significant advantage?

I would also certainly agree that anything adjustable would have to be properly engineered and extremely light. If you consider that the UCI imposed minimum weight regulations to counter the impressive engineering skills of todays top designers I don’t think this is an impossible task.

As the person Dan was referring to in the other thread (i.e. climbing 8% grades in the aero position, spinning 80-85 rpm) I have to say that you may be slightly misunderstanding my take on it.

The only reason I was doing the climb on my TT bike was to try to simulate a headwind condition in an upcoming TT (i.e. low speed, low inertia condition). I had recently moved my seat way further forward than previously and found that along with a moderate upward tilt of my aerobars that when “hitting the hill” I could actually pull myself further forward such that I was drastically “tipping it” on the saddle. This had the effect of opening up my hip angle and feeling like I was almost standing out of the saddle. This was the “Aha!” moment for me.

I’ve found that with the right aero position, I actually tend to move forward on my seat when hitting an incline instead of back.

I think a lot of times people move back in their saddle when climbing so that they can get an adequate “brace” from their arms. They sit up and grab the tops of the bars to open up the hip angle, but then slide back to get the arms in a “bracing” position. With the technique I talked about above, I moved forward to open up the angle, and the bar tilt allows me to adequately “brace” since they’re pulled in towards my chest. Make sense?

BTW, if I’d allowed myself to climb out of the saddle as much as I do on my road bike up that climb, I’m confident that I could match my road bike power. In this case, it was slightly lower since I was forcing myself to stay in the saddle. Normally, I “mix it up” a lot more when climbing something that steep.

So…if my TT bike was anywhere as near as light as my road bike, it would be a wash as to which I’d use on something that steep.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the clarification Tom. I did not fully realize what you were up to but I see your point.

I would certainly agree also that being able to ‘mix it up’ as you say is extremely desirable. I suspect that being able to shift muscle emphasis by standing is a valuable recovery strategy. With my saddle forward I get interference when I try and do this however. Is this a issue for you too?

I’m curious as to how you handle the really long steep stuff when required wattage is above 300. Are you still comfortable spinning your 39 in gear in the aero position?

MP

re: your last statement, I have to completely agree. I got fitted earlier this season and I have to tell you I can climb a heck of a lot of hills while remaining aero… mentally I had to retrain myself to NOT automatically sit-up on a hill.

Ap

Thanks for the clarification Tom. I did not fully realize what you were up to but I see your point.

I would certainly agree also that being able to ‘mix it up’ as you say is extremely desirable. I suspect that being able to shift muscle emphasis by standing is a valuable recovery strategy. With my saddle forward I get interference when I try and do this however. Is this a issue for you too?

I’m curious as to how you handle the really long steep stuff when required wattage is above 300. Are you still comfortable spinning your 39 in gear in the aero position?

MP

I don’t have any problems with saddle interference when climbing standing on the TT bike and that’s with my saddle sitting with the tip ~2-2.5 cm behind the BB (as far forward as I can go on my Soloist). In fact, there are 2 switchbacks that I have to get out of the saddle on that climb described above. The need to get out of the saddle, though, is more a function of not being able to keep the rpms up, i.e. it’s a gearing issue. A 39-27 just isn’t low enough of a gear to keep it turning over without the extra “oomph” from my body weight in those sections.

How do I handle the really long steep stuff when the required wattage is over 300? Well…in short, I don’t :wink: Seeing as how my FTP is sitting at ~285W right now, I’m not going to be doing stuff at 300W for very long. In any case, like I said above, the limiter on how steep of a climb I’m comfortable “spinning up” seems to be more a function of gearing than anything else, and not by the power I’m putting out.

How much do you ride your tri bike?
I find that when I switch bikes, it takes me a few rides to adapt but once that’s done, the power numers that I see climbing on either my road or tri bike are the same and I am pretty far forward.

Of course, I do wish that I could spin up a 9% grade at 85 RPM in ANY position ;))

Ah, I see, you’re quite a bit further back than I am.

Based on the study that Dan quoted on seat angles from 5 years ago that shows 81 degrees as ‘preferred’, I have positioned the seat on my P2K such that the nose is 2.5 cm ahead of the BB thereby creating the interference I refer to. This gives me lowest bar and flattest back position I can achieve - although it still bothers my neck after 3 or 4 hours.

Running lower gears is a bit of a sticky issue I find. A 50-34 Compact chainset does lower the power requirement a little bit but you almost need a triple to really open things up. I think I’d prefer to sit/stand and push a lower cadence.

This entire issue becomes more important for riders with lower power-to-weight ratios.

Cheers,
MP

I put in approximately 150 km per week on the tri bike. Unfortunately that’s all the time I can squeeze in. On hilly short rides I use my road bike. I believe I’m fairly well adapted to both at this point in the season.

I think alot of triathletes are like-minded in their desire to hold an 85 cadence on a 9% grade over a 39 inch gear - which underscores my thesis that its not realistic to ask age-groupers to do this. It would appear that several contributors on this thread feel that the solution is to refit ones bike with lower gears. I’m still of the view that while lower gearing does lower the power threshold there is a practical limit to how low you can go without building a mountain bike. Try finding road cassettes and derailleaur that handle 30+ tooth cogs. This also tends to widen the gap between gears which is very undesireable.

Cheers,
MP