This is the exact same thing I said 7 months ago about this race. It’s in a thread here, and there was much discussion on it. It is what they did at the Oceanside race, and it worked beautifully.
It is becoming ever-more-apparent that the only fair bike course is a hilly one. Oceanside is fair, Lake Placid is fair, Timberman, some others. These flat and semi-flat courses are just all wrong for a high-stakes non-drafting race. There need to be climbs at several points in the race to create separation between the weak and the strong.
Hmm, maybe. Honu is flat-ish, and doesn’t have a problem at all with 800 in a mass start. At C-eater it could well be the nature of so many being so similar in speed.
although a lot of people took advantage of the sitation makind drafting worse, when it came down to it the course+the number of people+how close together we all started made drafting inevitable. I hate drafting, drafters, drives me nuts but there was no way to avoid it 100% of the time on Sat. Granted you not sit in a big pack as I choose to ride off the back but you still ended up riding a virtual pack with the huge draft off the back and everyone riding the same damn time for the course…
Been working on a system to monitor bike spacing, but then whenever you hit a course like this one you realize that it’s all in vain as you’d be screwed no matter what you did or how you tried to ride.
Yeah if WTC doesn’t take up the recommendations that Monty discussed above, athletes just need to vote with their money. I enjoyed the race (well, apart from a few moments of intense “concentration” on the bike), but it’s not a real non-drafting triathlon with the huge packs. I checked it off “the list” and won’t do the race again.
And another reason why I like Xterra racing so much! Can’t draft when you are going up a rocky singletrack at 5 mph!
Heh Tai, any word on Ed’s injuries? Is he OK?
“And another reason why I like Xterra racing so much! Can’t draft when you are going up a rocky singletrack at 5 mph!”
Yep, had fun this year doing the Xterra thing, and never once felt like there was an issue with drafting. It’s legal in Xterra! Read: If your’e stupid enough to draft on gnarly single track, go for it dude!
Does WTC use the 78 degree rule? Maybe it’s time to put everyone under similar rules to those of the ITU for pros…which I think is 20C, about 68 degrees F. That would help.
Off the wall solution - start in time trial fashion. Randomly start people 4-5 seconds apart. I’ve done a few sprint tris like this. It makes it difficult/impossible to sit in on the bike because you have no idea where the lead person started in relation to you. There is no head to head racing because you don’t know anyone’s time until after they finish. It’s just each person against the clock.
Wave starts, with each wave drawn randomly from the entire field. Not sexy, not good for TV, not head to head racing, but the closest you can get to a swim-bike-run time trial.
Would 1500 people be interested in such a race format? I don’t know. Memphis in May is the only big-time race to attempt a similar format.
I would just allow drafting. Whats the problem? We draft in swimming? Just allow it “officially” since it happens anyways.
And unless someone can point to races with drafting that have safety issues, this argument holds no water, IMO, since I have done many AG drafting races and never have seen a safety issue.
Dave
How many of you were in contention for your AG? Maybe a few. I had a great time at the race, did a PR and avoided the drafting packs as much as I could…and I’m satisfied with that. If you did the race, didn’t partake in the drafting and wern’t in contention then just enjoy the race and stop whining. If you were in a draft pack and are happy with yourself then so be it. If you were in a draft pack and placed in your AG, you are a fucking loser. WTC and IMNA put on great races with great support. Do they care about me a mop guy, NO. Do I care, NO
the only reason I wouldn’t do the race again is its to damn late in the season
heard ed was okay, got fixed up, broken collarbone and a few stiches on the cheek. He was back in his hotel by the afternoon. I drove back up that night to find you guys but only had amy’s phone number and her damn phone broke. Checked out the awards, cruised through town shuttling a few athletes who were hitch hiking back to their hotel and checked out the bars hoping I’d find your crew. No luck, but Amy finally did call me as I was just getting home…
I heard that the bike course is different next year and the WTC already new that they needed to improve the course as the 07’ course plans were in the works before this race even went on. Good to know at least they aknowledge what they need to work on. Also heard they were bracing for the slew of phone calls from angy residents;)
Ahh, good to hear about Ed, could’ve been a lot worse. Yeah I think that race will only get better – the inaugural event is always fun to be in!!! Too bad you missed Amy and Brennan – I left them with a half-full bottle of tequila and I think they were getting ready to have a good time…anyway, nice seeing you again and anytime you want to do some Xterra races on the European Tour let me know! I might be doing Sardinia and Czech this year.
TT starts at 5 second intervals assigned randomly by race number? for 1200 racers, that would take… 100 minutes, or just over an hour and a half to get through the starting gate. I would think that would be enough to spread things out. Yes, there is a potential weather factor (heat, winds, etc), and it eliminates the “head-to-head” part of racing… But it’s supposed to be an individual effort anyway, and the bike is supposed to be a TT effort anyway.
How to stop the drafting?
There should be a rule against drafting. That would be a good start.
There is a rule? oh. I have not seen it enforced very much.
Perhaps they should try that first before they try all the other solutions being proposed.
They did try to enforce it a few years back? They should have stuck with it.
Too many people on the course to avoid drafting? ok this is a problem, I know. But to me, having now done 3 IM with around 2000 people in them, I found it relatively easy to tell who was trying to comply with the rule when it was possible and who was trying to comply with the spirit of the rule when it was not possible to fully comply with the rule. It was also easy to tell who was flagrantly and deliberately drafting and particularly who was chosing to ride in a pack or right on someone’s tail.
Penalize those who are obviously breaking the rule and making no effort to comply with the spirit of it.
Ref might penalize the wrong guy or let someone go who should be caught? That’s reffing. Every call by a ref is a judgement call.
How to deal with a pack? Ref pulls up behind, watches for a minute or so and then nails as many of the offenders as possible. Some guilty ones get away? Too bad, but even they will have serious second thoughts about drafting in a pack after a bunch of their fellow packers get nailed.
An innocent rider who has been overtaken and is falling back gets nailed because they were still in the pack when the ref nails the group? I have a lot of smpathy for this person because to me and to most of us, the four minute penalty is not nearly as significant as the shame of being penalized as a cheater. But the ref can not be afraid to hand out penalties because he might sometimes make the wrong call.
Do you penalize the leaders of the pack? The guy on the inside right does not get penalized if he has not been passed, other leaders to his left can probably be nailed for blocking or drafting. If the ref is in doubt, just nail the 20 guys riding behind the three in front.
Perhaps some are concerned about my comment above that implies the ref should be letting the guys go who appear to be trying to comply with the spirit of the rule on a crowded course creates a real grey area of rule enforcement. Perhaps. But to me it is black and white. Drafting is far to prevalent. There are lots of guys clearly deliberately breaking the rule and the first step to dealing with the problem is to crack down on the offenders.
A rules crackdown is always unpopular but if the officials implement it and stick with it, it will significantly reduce the problem.
At IMC last year in the middle of the pack (i mean field) there were too many of us on the course to perfectly comply with the rule. But you could easily tell the guys who were sitting on one persons tail from the rest of us that were trying to maintain a decent distance given the congestion.
And then the pack of over 25 riders swept past us and carried on in tight formation until they were out of sight. Nail them all I say.
This year at IMC, it seemed as though there was a heavier presence of refs and I saw no packs like the one last year.
I don’t think race directors are going to reduce the size of the field or spread the race out over two days as others have suggested on other threads. I am sceptical that even wave starts will substantially eliminate drafting and riding in packs. Rules enforcement vigorously pursued will get the worst of the offenders and that will likely be enough to scare off many of the others.
Grant
(if you liked this comment (and even if you didn’t) and know something about swimming, can you go to my thread on front quadrant swimming and help me out. thanks.)
If you were in a draft pack and placed in your AG, you are a fucking loser.
Well that would be about everyone who placed top 10 or so in the male AGs between the age of 20-44. I guess we could call you tolerant and accepting?
Very simple - 20 waves - 100 people per wave - 15 min. between waves.
Only problem is getting the city to let WTC have the roads for the bike course from 7:00 AM - 3:00 PM.
Z
If you were in a draft pack and placed in your AG, you are a fucking loser.
Well that would be about everyone who placed top 10 or so in the male AGs between the age of 20-44. I guess we could call you tolerant and accepting?
I thought Arizona was all Republicans, DD??
How about we put stealth “fake” athletes on the course on bikes to hand out drafting/blocking penalties? I like that.
I did the race and had a great time - only issue was the drafting on the bike, which was the worst I have ever seen in terms of the size of the packs and the blatantness (real word?) of it all. When the first giant pack came up on me I tried to pull off the front and get away, but I stayed away about 3-4 minutes going way too hard and then got eaten up my the peloton again. The only thing you could do to ride clean, which I did from that point on, was when a pack of 30-40 riders came up (happened about 3x in total) was hit the brakes/coast and let them go then ride clean behind then as they pulled away working together. Sucks a bit, but that was the only option that day. That said, overall I had a great experience and would come back especially if they:
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get a permit for 2 lanes instead of 1 for much of the course - this was clearly a big cause of congestion. It would also make the course alot safer which I think is needed given the incredible amount of vehicular traffic in the area
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do 8-10 minutes between waves like at Eagleman (this alone could solve alot of the problem
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smaller waves (1 AG per wave - having 30-34 + 35-39 men together was asking for a draftfest)
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as much as possible separate the waves of AGs of similar speed (ex 30-34 and 35-39). No big deal if one goes later and gets more or less wind or sun as you are competing against others in your AG under the same conditions
ooh, you might do xterra czech?? I was thinking of that one being that I’m 50% czech. Damn time change of like 11 hours is a pita though. Can’t believe that I missed out on those two girls post race with a big thing of tequila… They called me saying they needed me to help fend off all the horny euros on the dance floor;) To bad for them I was already an hour out of town.
looking to Timberman 70.3 next year…
Others have mentioned a TT start. I propose a twist on this.
Wave starts, but then have bikers line up leaving T1 with there bikes, you can’t leave until the person ahead of you crosses a line 10/20 metres up the road. Draft zone increased to 10 metres.
Nip the whole “can’t fit so many bikes in such a short distance” thing in the bud.
Would folks be pissed having to wait in line for a minute or 2 at the beginning of the bike? Sure as hell they would. But I’d sign up for this knowing the bike would have a better chance of being legit.
Deja Vu???